Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => Magic and the Planes => Topic started by: ROOTless on February 19, 2006, 09:29:32 AM
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Does anyone have the Target Wastelands book?
Is there any limitations on magic when you're at sea? I'd expect none, as there's plenty of life, and Water (especially Sea) has a presence as well, but can it be confirmed?
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There are certain limitations, such as the use of "Blast" effect spells in pressurized environments. This is a GM thing, but if a player uses a spell that changes the air pressure, it can cause breaches or if those do not occur, the pressure changes inside the habitat can set off alarms or self-sealing bulkheads.
Most sea-faring magicians use Sea spirits' Guard power to prevent all kinds of sea-type nastiness. Their greater form Divination ability is even more so, with the ability to divine the general hazards or locations of nesting Kraken and Megalodons.
The interior of a ship always summons a Hearth Spirit, while above decks is Sky and Sea. Visibility on the astral plane under water is virtually nil because of all the life in the water.
One little tidbit about T: WL is that (while not directly related to sea travel) when the sun is up for 3 months in the Arctic, summoning a nature spirit will last until "sunset" which can be months away. Also, certain shamans like Sun or Moon, may be considerably more powerful (or virtually useless)
Other than that, most of the underwater rules are explained in Cannon Companion. There really are no restrictions on above water casting, save for some of the nasty toxic zones like most of the North Sea.
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All that I knew, but glad to know that T: WL didn't impose some silly background count or some such.
Wiz, this makes everything a lot easier for that idea of mine.
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Oh, and remember, when in doubt, throw a megaladon at them. ;D
Gabriel
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Yea, because if they have a boat, they'll have a weapon that can inflict naval dammage, and if they can do that... they need a target that can survive it.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Are there mana storms at sea?
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as much as anywhere.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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If you want oceanic manastorms, just sail around Austraila until everyone on board turns into a kangaroo.
Gabriel
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HAHAHA
"If you tell me to hoist that yard one more time I'll kangaroo punch you in the nose!"
-Ruski
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Re: Megalodons
Yeah, you'd think so, but even a naval blast won't kill something that regenerates.
As for mana-storms, there certainly are, but I'm not certain about whether or not they occur underwater, considering the static mana-flux generated by all the life in the water.
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I wanted to know about over the water, anyway.
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Well, technically, manastorms can happen anywhere inside of the biosphere. But they seem to be concentrated almost entirely around Australia. It is incredibly rare for a manastorm to occur outside of that area, especially in any high force-rating situation. Now, keep in mind that this doesn't mean that they can't happen somewhere else, only that the trend is fairly cosistant.
Incidentally, AJ, have you read up on the rules for mana-storms?? IF not, I'm sure we can summerize.
Gabriel
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Eh, mana storm is usually just a really really BIG area-effect spell. Of course, sometimes is just bad weather accompanied by Storm Wraiths (Violent "proto-spirits" that thrive inside mana-storms)
The GM can make a mana storm do whatever they want: A giant wall of fire, an invisible Slay Kangaroo (or Munchkin Troll) spell, an Invisibility (Car) spell, a storm of jellybeans. Usually, these storms have some physical component, like normal storms, but sometimes they are invisible.
On that subject, some of the effects of a mana storm sound an awful lot like the Plagues visited upon the Egyptians in the story of Passover...
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no, I haven't. Mainly because when I had money, I couldn't find other runners, and now that I can find runners, I don't have the money for books.
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Bah, money is only one component.
if you've got some spare time, you can make up for money with research and a little bit of imagination.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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no, I haven't. Mainly because when I had money, I couldn't find other runners, and now that I can find runners, I don't have the money for books.
Well, basicaly, Retread's right about manastorms. Just take an area-effect spell and apply it to a very large area. Now, keep in mind that some of these storms have no visual components at all. So it's very difficult to get away from storms like this. Mundanes and most groggies will just have to judge by the effect the mana storm has on those around him. The problem is, if you have a rating 12 Control Emotion: Dispair mana storm, it's very difficult to tell that it's happening at all, but the effects could be devistating. Now, the big special effect style mana storms with acid streams and toxic waves coming out of the skies are easy to spot, but how do you get away from a storm that is 150 miles long, 100 miles deep, and moving at 25 miles an hour???
Just treat them like big area affect spells and you'll be doing it right.
Gabriel
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Yep, inland australia, spell defence and (preferbly) shielding metamagic are your friends.
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and try to make sure that your PC's won't be instantly killed... it always sucks for the AOE Kill spells to wipe out your party members that don't make the willpower 12 save.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Ok. So, would that be the kind of 'push' someone might need to find out they're Awakened?
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normally puberty is all it takes, but I suppose a genetic manipulation manastorm could pull it off...
whoa... Guess what would happen if an entire city suddenly all got the ability to see astrally and use magic?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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hooboy. Sounds like was Magneto was trying to pull in X1
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that would be cool!
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Phasing!
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Well, mana storms tend to have limited durations. When the storm ends, the spell effects end as well. At least, the sustained ones end. A flamethrower manastorm would stop tossing flames, but dead is dead. So you COULD have a manstrom which allowed (or rather force) victims to astrally project. Now imagin having that happen to you and some nasty Storm Wraiths riding the storm and waiting for you on the astral plane. OUCH!. And if the storm lasts for more hours than you have Essence, then you just die no matter what.
Gabriel
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Well, what if it was a storm that you were being paid to stop? they could have some sort of essense anchor that would let you stay in longer inorder to get the job done...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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How in the hell are you supposed to stop a mana storm??? And what's an essence anchor??
Gabriel
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an essence anchor would stop your astral form from drifting too far from your body (bringing allong with it the drifting death talked about a little higher) so you can go on an astral quest, in the flesh.
and, if you walked into the heart of an astral storm, you could see what was causing it, and stop / move it.
wouldn't be easy, but I bet it could be done on a limited scale.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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That's kinda cool.
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Yup.
it is.
although, even if you are anchored, there are good reasons why it would be tough to do.
when you are tied to your physical form, you can't move arround quite like other people who are compleatly astral.
also, the very real enviroment can do dammage to your meat body that's trudging allong behind you as your astral form is zipping ahead.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Martin DeVries has a unique focus called an Essence Focus, it essentially allowed him to go for long times without Draining Essence from people and critters (He is a vampire)
A person who has the posession power can also inhabit an object designed to be inhabited by a spirit, such as a homunculus or Hidden Life Object. However, when the item is designed, the person whom it is designed for should be present or have a material link with the item. When inhabiting something through possession you never lose essence. So if the players are in a storm that makes them astrally project, provide them with an opportunity to find some Koradji artifact that holds souls and let them inhabit it for a while.
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see, I knew it could be done.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Yeah, if you throw in all that second edition stuff about DeVries. Personally, I think the Essence/Astral Projection rule needs to stand. If fro no other reason, it has to be a game balancer. Allowing a PC to project indefinatly is dangerous to the game you are running and would very quickly leed to a Monty Hall campaign.
Gabriel
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Well, you could come up with some sort of Chronic Aura Disassociation Syndrome whereby your character starts losing physical attributes for being separated from your body for so long. But that would throw away the nature of 5 day long Astral Quests too...
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well, you oculd make the artafacts that they have to use so expencive that they could only afford to 'rent' them for the duration of the one run. have to go borrow them from a local dragon or someone else that they'd be too afraid to slot-off.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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You both have a point, but I still think the limiting factor is there for a reason.
However, I did want to ask you 2 rules-junkies about a reference i can't find. I seem to remember a drug that would force a person astrally project, but I can't find it anywhere. The closest I can find is something in Man & Machine that forces a subject to astrally percieve. Am I confusing this with something else like the Nazca Lines??? Any help with this would be appreciated.
Gabriel, Smoking Awakened Cheba at Sea
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Like you, I can only thing of the 'Perception drug'.
However, some free spirits can effectively project you into the astral, IIRC.
As for the lines you mentioned, there's something in the Awakend Lands book, but not much as I recall. Should I look it up?
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Well, I know the Nazca Lines can force even a mundane to project, but I think maybe that was what I was thinking of when and got it confused with the drug. In fact, the Nazca Lines aren't the only things in the world that can make a mundane project, but for the life of me I can't remember the others.
Gabriel
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I think there's something like 'deepweed' that makes astrally active chariters project... but I don't know anything that effects muggles in the same way...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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So, basically, you'd need the potential to be there even if it wasn't 'active'?
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Yea. Dunno what would happen if you gave it to an adept...
guess it would depend on if they had that capability...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Well, I seem to recall Adepts can do Astral Quests, even if they don't have astral sight, so I'd imagine it'd work for them, too.
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Actually some of the phenomena out there can make a mundane project as if he were awakened. But Ithink Deepweed just makes an already awakened character percieve, not even project.
Gabriel
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it was not 'deepweed', it was just like it.
I think it was talked about in the same section as deepweed though...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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It's Deepweed, listed in Man and Machine. Deepweed is particularly used by houngans in order to prepare their serviteurs for the Spirit World or to allow unwilling victims to be mounted by Loa.
However, the description says it only affects magically active characters (including Adepts) One could conjecture that a new strain may exist that works on unawakened, especially since the passing of the comet and SURGE.
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DeepWeed only (IIRC) causes perception, not projection.
It has already been discussed.
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Yeah, I think I'm chasing my tail on this one. I probably just remembered it incorrectly.
Gabriel
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Well, there isn't any one that causes projection, but I also do recall an online Drug sourcebook that has some compounds that cause astral perception as well. Not to mention an awakened flower that repels bug spirits (except for Bee Spirits)
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I don't think the commet affected drugs much... other than increasing their sales...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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BTL sales probably went up, too...
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anything involving sex, drugs, or shadowrunning certanly went up in value on the eastern exchange.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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You don't think the comet affected drugs much? Possibly, but I was pointing at Awakened and unAwakened plants SURGEing into crazy wacked out hybrids that do completely unexplained things, like dousing flames and turning your skin into rock, or causing powerful spontaneous Astral Quests in the unawakened.
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I haven't read about any of thoes drugs... but I certanly suppose it's possible...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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I could see it. How about a SURGED form of Lotus plant. Remeber that thing in the Odesy (I think it was the Odessy) about he Lotus Eaters??? An entire city that was stoned out of its gourd because of the winds blowing down from the hils covered in narcotic plants. Everyone was halucinating all the time. Think about something like that SURGEing in an isolated region where it had time to take root and really grow.
Gabriel
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Or those poppies from Wizard of Oz?
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"We represent... the lolly pop guild! the lolly pop guild! the lolly pop guild! and as representatives of... the lolly pop guild, we'd like to welcome you to munchkin land!"
-RuskiFace the Muchkin
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Hee, Shadowrun and Munchkins, who would've thought?
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*grin*
troll munchkins... wow what an oxy-moron!
-RuskiFace the Moron
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I'd've thought they'd be a dwarf varient.
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Stoned dwarven adepts with a flare for the gay. Now THAT is scary as frag.
Gabriel
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I thought you liked that movie?
I saw it in your video collection!
-RF
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Lil' Sista?
Midget Porn is scary, perhaps use an illusion spell to make a boat full of midget prostitutes?
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that's an awfull lot of desease crammed into a small space...
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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An illusory space, mind you. So technically, it's an awful lot of hypothetical disease crammed into space occupied by nothing...
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but you could add olfactory senses to the illusion...
yuck!
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Yeesh. That could get pretty nasty fast.
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It already did, sister. It already did.
:-X
-kv
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...
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Only so I could watch the flying monkies!!! ;)
Gabriel
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Weren't they a motorcycle gang or something in The Wiz?
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I'm not sure, but I bet they could toss a nasty mana-bolt while sailing on a scooner.
Gabriel, Arch-Duke of Getting Back on Topic ;D
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Think they use levitation to help them stay aloft?
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levitation and a wind spell?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Possibly a bound air spirit, but that would be the "long way" around that problem.
Gabriel
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I don't know, it only takes one complex action and one simple action to summon and command a nature spirit. While it takes two complex actions to cast two spells. That is unless you cast both and split your dice.
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ohh... dice splitting... now that's a good way to get in trouble fast.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Maybe a sustaining focus. That witch was pretty bad-hoop.
Gabriel
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Well, technically, it's better to cast two sustained spells at once, as then you don't receive the penalty for sustaining until both are cast. Of course, that isn't necessarily true, but you know...
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I could see it. How about a SURGED form of Lotus plant. Remeber that thing in the Odesy (I think it was the Odessy) about he Lotus Eaters??? An entire city that was stoned out of its gourd because of the winds blowing down from the hils covered in narcotic plants. Everyone was halucinating all the time. Think about something like that SURGEing in an isolated region where it had time to take root and really grow.
Gabriel
or real world incedent the salem wich trails :mercy:
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Re: Megalodons
Yeah, you'd think so, but even a naval blast won't kill something that regenerates.
As for mana-storms, there certainly are, but I'm not certain about whether or not they occur underwater, considering the static mana-flux generated by all the life in the water.
Waitwaitwaitwaitwait... You mean there are freaking magically awakened versions of those monsters! Or are the old ones people talk about originally awakened or what?? and how often do you see something like that?? Lord... as if water wasnt bad enough for me damn it....
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As an interesting bit, for casting spells at sea.
Average height of crow's nest on "average" size vessels (Coast guard cutters, Naval cruisers) is 150ft-300ft.
On a clear day, that would allow someone to see for approximately 4 miles (I think. . .) or to the limit of sight.
Add binoculors, or better yet a telescope, flat sea, magical sight enhancers, cybereyes with focus control and high level zooms. . . Forget snipers, mages can waste everyone on the deck of a ship from 20+miles away! Or sink it directly. . .
Anyway, I am bad at guesstimating distance, so I'll ask you. . .
What do you think the maximum range is for a mage (Or sorcery adept) thusly decked out is?
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range of sight
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Yeah... if it were possible, Megas would have a kabal of mages up in Z-O dropping spells on people from orbit. Luckilym it isn't possible, so everyone is stuck to line of sight.
As far as I understand it, when you're out in the open sea, the only thing blocking line of sight is curvature of the earth, so get down with your bad dance self. Whether through visual magnification or some type of cyberwear, if you can see it, you can nuke it.
-kv
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The reason that the don't do the death from space thing, is
Firstly, Mages don't like space, due to the Nearly Dead Magic zone that space is.
Second, Orbiting mages are limited by the surface weather (clouds, Sunflare, etc.)
Additionally, either SR3 Corebook, or Magic in the Shadows says that LOS spells can have their range increased if it is still that character's natural vision. (Binoculars still use your natural eyes. Same for telescopes.)
The only things that can NOT extend your sight range are non-natural sight, such as TV, Security cameras, Matrix video feeds
So I think that it would work very well.
Certainly puts a damper on border crossing over the sea, or sky.
Along the same lines, put mages in blimps, out on the deck and use them Anywhere for the same effect. . .
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gives a new defenition of a gun boat dont it
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Sight range can also be increased by mirrors and other optical devices, like fiberoptic seeing tubes with prism switchers.
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im new and i dont have much.....
could i by a book from some1?
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Err. What book are you looking for?
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If you live in a major urban center, you should have some hobby stores nearby. Give us the city, and we'll look one up for you. (Same goes if you are in the country, but are willing to drive ;) . . .)
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or, for thoes who are bouth financially strapped, and technically aware... there are OTHER options available to you.
Just depends on your own personal moral compas.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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or, for thoes who are bouth financially strapped, and technically aware... there are OTHER options available to you.
Just depends on your own personal moral compas.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
And who you know.
But back to the LOS thing, if you have LOS, then the spell works just fine, but remember, you have to be able to see your target, not just that there is a target there. This isn't canon, just common sense. Seeing a guy 4 miles off on a clear day with no vision magnification would be possible, but I would rule that there is a +4TN since all you can really see is a figure WAY off. Yes, you can target him, but you would have trouble doing it. Again, just my personal GM style, but there you are.
So being up 150 ft.. from the center of gravity of a boat would probably be a very unstable platform to aim off of, especially with a telescope. The roll of the ocean magnified by the hieght of the mast and the shifting angle of the telescope would give you a ton of movement. I would think that would make casting a spell tough, much less keeping your sights centered on your target. I just picture old WWII gun sight footage I've seem from naval battles. You'd have thought those ships were on springs the way they were moving.
Of course, if you have a stable plaftorm to work with, have some fun. Imagine being in a hot air balloon or a zeplin. They're pretty stable. You bolt on a high powered telescope and have some fun casting random spells on people bellow. Imagine floating over a public pool with a Control Emotion spell. You could have ALL KINDS of fun with that. Or maybe a Magic Fingres spell. The mind reals.
Gabriel
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Hmmmm. . . Be in a blimp over the SuperBrawl, and cast a Control {something} and Make everyone hungry. Then collect your "assistance fee" from the soydog vendors after the game. . .
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I'd hate to see the target numbers at +2 pr. additional target for 120,000 people.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
although I suppose you could burn a karma and buy a sucess if you got one lucky roll in...
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You know, I'm still thinking about the whole public pool thing. Damn I wish I was a mage!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gabriel, Cybernetic Elf (Dammit)
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Can control emotions make a bunch of kids pee in a pool?
Cause... it doesn't seem like they need much help. Or did you have something else in mind?
-kv
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Yeah, Control Emotions (Lust) or Control Emotions (Hatred) or whatever.
I don't think that the motion of the vehicle you're on affects your ability to cast spells. Simply seeing your target is enough. You aren't directing the spell on a parabolic arc or firing angle, you're simply making the mana around the target do what you want.
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Also, rememeber tht spells have no recoil.
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Oh I know all of that. What I am talking about is actually being able to direct a spell at what ammounts to a speck on the horizon from the deck of a ship where actually keeping that speck in sight is a problem. You all know how much the rolling of a ship and the waves in between (although in a crow's nest the waves really aren't a problem when blocking LOS) can obscure a target and make it difficult to keep a bead on. And if you are looking through a scope or telecope or binoculars, it is that much worse because of your field of vision being SO focussed.
To me it just makes sense. Casting a spell at someone who is at the extreme range of your vision is going to be harder than casting it on someone a block away. For example say you're out in the mountian and you see a guy up on a hill about a mile and a half away. You have no scope, but since you can technically see him, you can hit him with a spell, so you cast your spell. Now imagine what you are REALLY seeing is an interestingly shaped tree, or a scarecrow, or a drone. Sure, you can still cast at it and the TN goes way up, but if you could see it clearly in the first place, you never would have cast the spell. I'm just syaing distance should be considered.
Gabriel
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In the second edition (grimoire I think) there was a penalty for targetting spells at very long range. I don't believe it survived into the 3rd edition.
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I did not know that. Personaly, I would go for a +2TN for really long range and a +4TN to really long range plus movement conditions.
Gabriel
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See, I'm glad that I brought all this up!
I suppose you could summon a Sea Spirit or Water Elemental to help stabilize your boat, and use the previously mentioned sight enhancements to help keep your vision focused on the target. . . But I agree with Gabe.
It should be difficult, but possible, which is why I brought it up.
It should be difficult, because if it were easy, then it would be abused and unbalancing. But it's still a neat idea. (IMHO)
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I completely agree with the game balance angle there, Curris.
Gabriel
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Wait... wasn't he just agreeing with you?
Although, I have to say, I agree too.
-kv
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I concur. Ruski, do you concur? Gabe concurs. . .
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I think Ruski concurs. What about you, Zone? Do you concur??
Gabriel
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"Damn it! I should have concurred!"
-kv
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Wait... wasn't he just agreeing with you?
Yes, he was. Why do you think Gabe so galantly concured ;)
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Well, if you were using range rules, you'd have to agree that using vision magnification would reduce the penalty.
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Optical magification, yes.
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Of course. But I think you might still be missing the point just a bit. The penalty isn't neccessarily range based, but how hard it is to keep your eye on the target. In the above mentioned scenario with the crow's nest, using a telescope would make it harder to do since the further you magnify something, the more you focus on a small area. A small optical field is affected much more by the rolling waves and gets off target very easily.
But anyway, I think we're digressing a bit.
Gabriel
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The energy is being directed to the mana of the target, regardless of how fast the target moves or otherwise simple sight allows the spell to work. By that regard, you could allow a character to dodge a spell while still in plain view. It's generally assumed that the Sorcery test is what determines keeping a bead on the target. Anyone who knows they're being targeted with a spell should get out of view, not simply move around.
It's very hard to dodge the view of someone with adjustable binoculars by simply moving around. It's better to get out of view by hiding behind something.
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Have you ever actually looked out of a telescope while in the deck of a ship, Retread? It's fraggin hard to keep anything in clear an focused view.
Gabriel
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Larger ships tend to be more stable, though. Like supertankers. You can walk all over them and never know you're on the ocean.
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Unless you're up on the crows nest... of course, the same thing could be said of high buildings shifting in the wind.
-kv
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True, although I would think a building would be a bit more stable. But then, I've never bee at the top of a really tall building.
Gabriel
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If I recall correctly, really tall buildings are designed with a certain amount of 'give', such that they may indeed sway (several meters in some cases!) to reduce wind induced strees.
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Yes, it's better to bend a little, than crack a lot!
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Presuming you're using a telescope, yes. However, since you can zoom out and catch a generally large picture to still get a bead. You're not really "aiming" at the target, afterall. You just need to see them. The rocking of the boat would still count as if you were moving on "difficult" terrain, I imagine, so that would be a +T# for the distraction.
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Larger ships tend to be more stable, though. Like supertankers. You can walk all over them and never know you're on the ocean.
I disagre I have ridden on a cruse ship before and trust me if the seas are rough you feel the ship on the waves admitly visualy your not going to see
alot of difances and while yes the target is going to bob in the view field not apriablely and as long as you can see the taeget your going to hit