Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => Magic and the Planes => Topic started by: Curris on April 26, 2006, 10:46:33 PM
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As I was reading through the January Run, and I read the post where the spirit was pushing the halon out of the room, I thought this up.
I was under the assumption that spirits (and elementals) could only perform actions pertaining to manifestable powers and abilities.
To me, "pushing air" doesn't seem to be equivalent to Accident, Guard, Manifest, Engulf, etc.
My question is this. What other non-keyword powers do spirits (and elementals) have? Do these minors actions decrease their force, as though completing a task? Can they be performed by only certain types of entities? (Such as "pushing air" can only be done by air elementals, and sky spirits, or can any astral entity do this?)
Thank you for your responses, as this may get a grip on whether or not I have been running spirits correctly. . .
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ah but pushing the halon out the vents does quilify as guard to guard is to protect the caster and breathing halon is life threating
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Mostly, I try to think about how hard it would be to do something.
moving air arround isn't very tough if you have a fan.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Or plenty of liquid helium, a (very!) good thermal insulation suit and a shovel.
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Okay, so the abilities are up to interpretation then. . .
But to continue the example, yes, it is easy to move air with a fan. However, controlling the direction of motion with said fan, that could be rediculously difficult. But, it's magic, so. . . it's plausible. . .
In addition, can watcher spirits be summoned only by shamans, or do mages have some equivalent?
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Mages (and magical oddities) can summon Watchers.
It's right there in Magic in the Shadows.
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Any summoner can summon watchers.
A spirit (assuming you mean nature spirit) can guard the players against accidents in their domain. The halon gas, being a danger, is considered a mundane "accident" However, the guard power should have reduced Power the damage the players would take every turn from the halon gas by the spirit's force. If the power were reduced to zero, the halon could be rendered inert. This, however, is my interpretation of the rules. Guard is a sustained ability that does not make a dice roll. Ideally, this makes it so a force 1 spirit has very little effect on an unnatural (relatively) gas, while a force 8 has no problem and is completely powerful in its own domain.
If a Force 6 spirit were to guard against a force 4 spirit's accident power, the force 6 prevails. However, if a force 4 spirit were to Guard against a force 6 spirit's Accident, the spirit would only negate 4 points of the accident and the effective power of the force 6's Accident would be 2.
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I just figured a hearth spirt would be able to do it who knows it might have just got the vent fan going to pull it out
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it's mmmaaaaggggiiiiccccc.... wwwoooohhhhhh!
LOL
mostly, I suck at magic, and in an impromptu fasion, I took a little GM inititive, and let it work, because that was easyer than looking up all the rules, and it was a good idea, and one of the few things that could get them out of that death-trap alive.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
I don' t know if it's a good idea to base my actions on cannon though...
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Well Curris, I a while back, I asked the question "what other things can you do with a spirit besides just listed powers; that is, what would a spirit be able to do by simply BEING a spirit in a particular domain." It was supposed to get people thinking about other ways to use spirits by thinking outside of the box. In the example I gave, my players summoned a Force 4 Wind Spirit and had it vaporize a army helmet full of DSMO laced Gamma-Scopolamine, by sucking the liquid into its windy form. Then the spirit glided through an army camp. As it did so, the soldiers were breathing in teh GS, and dropping like flies.
Now, as far as I know, none of that really jibes with listed powers, but I could certainly see it being feasable for a critter that is essentially air on the material plane. So in the case of the Halon, I could certainly see a wind spirit being able to push the gas back. However, if the entire area were flooded with halon and it had had a chance to work on the oxygen in the room, then I think you would HAVE to use it as a Guard power since very little oxygen would have survived the gas. As I've been told (and I'm sure ROOTless will be able to clairify) halon actually destroys oxygen, or at least renders it totally unusable. Therefore, if there had been halon flooding the room, there would be no breathable air left and the spirit would have had to "make" it by using a power.
Of course, I still like playing spirits a bit more losely than canon rules seem to dictate. To me a spirit isn't really a critter, but the reflection of a place/event/ideal/etc. So there are bound to be things that they can do that aren't covered in their power list. For instance, have you ever thought of asking a Hearth Spirit for juicy gossip?? After all, it is the manifestation of everything that happens in the building, so therefore would know ALL about what goes on inside the building. You wouldn't even need to make Int. Tests if you asked it directions. It KNOWS the building because it IS the building.
Think about it and have some fun with the idea.
Gabriel
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That's exactly what I'm talking about, and those are some great ideas!
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I suppose it's just the way you look at it. If you look at spirits as just statistics, then it gets a bit redundent. So now I'm interested here: what kind of ideas do you have Curris?
Gabriel
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Well, I once thought that air elementals could be used as carrier mediums for signals. Since you can relate signals to vibrating molecules, an elemental can "attune" itself to a frequency, or signal, and then use itself as a transmission medium. Kind of like a spiritual wireless. . . Never used it, except as a thought experiment.
I had a player try to sell an earth elemental as a statue "work of art." I reminded him that the elemental would eventually expire, and that the buyer would likely be angry. . . Although think about it, artistic magicians. . .
Using mountain Nature spirits to guide miners to veins of valuable minerals, so that you can avoid nature depleting methods like strip mining, by doing precision dig work. . .
Those are just a few, but you see what I mean, that none of them use a "by-the-book" rule, but it seems like things they should be capable of.
Using a nature spirit to help fertilize and grow your private small garden?
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That would work, the garden thing that is. I could see a low-level forrest/prairie/etc. spirit being used to fertilize and care for a garden. You could even use it as a scarecrow. The thing is, the "favor" or "ability" should reflect the nature (pardon the pun) of the nature spirit. I don't know about an earth elemental or mountain spirit would actually guide miners to precious minerals as they would be removing the minerals from the wpirit's domain, and thus weakening it. Of course, maybe a free spirit might do that by making a deal or something.
Gabriel
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Spirits are bound by their favors and have NO choice in their actions. In fact, if you look at the way spirits work, they are essentially "lifeless" that is to say, they as they consider themselves, never really existed, but are rather a snapshot of the nature of that area linked in a colonial manner. When the magician summons them however, they are somewhat "imprinted" on reality by their summoner and begin a life if/when they become Free.
The finding precious metals is a Search power, relative to the power of the spirit, a higher force spirit will be able to find more minerals in a greater range.
Wind Spirits have Telekinesis and cannot attack physically without it, therefore, a DMSO laced Gamma-Scopyline[sp] could easily be transferred through the area as long as it didn't weigh too much (which, it likely didn't)
An Earth Elemental could pose as a statue, indeed, it wouldn't last long, unless you bound it under remote service using Karma for a year and a day. (Another Earthdawn holdover, as well) More efficiently, a Greater Form Earth Elemental could shape its own statue out of marble or clay.
Watcher spirits are a more effective way to send messages, they can never do greater than Light Stun damage and are relatively efficient at 6 force, if not a little brainless. Watcher spirits make great party favors at social gatherings too, you can have them eavesdrop on the mundanes while they make chit-chat to catch every little bit of gossip. They are also quite dangerous in astral combat when attack en masse.
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That'd be a way to go. I'd hate to get fragged by a mob of Watchers. What would the other ghosts think?
They'd die laughing. "That's Rushing Bull, he tangled with the Bugs in Chicago, and that's Silentman, he got shot up by gangers; Oh and that's Whizzy. Frelling Moron got himself scragged by some Watchy-whatsits puffballs. . . "
Seriously though, You can use watchers for bunches of stuff. Alarm clocks, mental post-it notes. . .
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I have to disagree with your take on spirits, Retread. If spirits had no mind of their own, then they would never go free. You could never have the edge Spirit Affinity or the flaw Spirit Bane. All of these things, backed up by the literature of the SR novels, point to spirits having personality, and thus concioucness. And remember, you can also torque off a spirit to the point where it will attack you if it goes free. That means that it has a memory and feelings too.
All of this points to them being much more than a generic dice pool or list of accessable powers.
Gabriel
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Unfortunatly he's (atleast partially) right.
Spirits do not have a choice wether to disobey commands or not.
They may however well resent it, which gets very nasty if they ever go free.
Atleast, that's how I recall it.
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Ah, I was a bit unclear there. I know that once you summon them, they are bound until their services are discharged or they are dispelled or "destroyed" in combat. I was just trying to illustrate my opinion that they are none the less alive and sentient in a way we aren't entirely clear on.
Gabriel
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I too agree. Spirits have spirit, a soul of some sorts. They can be made to do things like robots, but they think and feel, all the same.
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My understanding is this:
(I expect someone to correct me)
A spirit is the sum of the energy or the nature of a place- busy city streets, where 9-5ers trudge and wander to and from wageslave livings, are filled with the energy of those beings. The mage takes this energy, focuses it with his will, and summons a spirit, imprinted with his personality as well as the energy of the place it was summoned from.
Hence, forest, hearth and those spirits tend to be fairly free-willed, and urban city spirits (and the spirits of man) tend to be rather servitud...al.
I don't know how this affects anything, other than flavor, but that's how I understood it.
-kv
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Then that's how you should play it. After all, it wouldn't really affect game-play too much, and if it helps you use the rules, then go for it.
Oh, and wasn't it you, Retread, who came up with the idea of a Street Spirit???
Gabriel
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I was talking about elementals, specifically. Their nature is proto-spiritual as their make up is of a distant creative plane. That is to say, they are very "basic" because they are a manifestation of building blocks for creation, while Nature spirits are the manifestation of the creation's existence. That is why there is a distinction between elementals land spirits of the elements. A mage creates a servant out of raw matter that really has little personality. What personality it has is drawn from the mage that summoned it. If that elemental goes free, it tends to emulate the nature of its summoner. This is not so for domain-based spirits whose personality is derived from psycho-sensitive properties of the mana from that which it is derived.
Elementals do not make terribly good conversationalists.
For reference: Spirits are all sapient mana-forms, this includes elementals, nature spirits, spirits of the elements, Loa, Invae (bug spirits), blood spirits, Shedim, Imps, etc.
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while they may have to follow ordrs that dont mean they cant prevert thoose oders and do what you tell them to the letter of the oder not the intent
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I was talking about elementals, specifically. Their nature is proto-spiritual as their make up is of a distant creative plane. That is to say, they are very "basic" because they are a manifestation of building blocks for creation, while Nature spirits are the manifestation of the creation's existence.
Well that makes sense, and brings up a good point: has anyone noticed how the rule book for SR3 uses "elemental" and "spirit" interchangably in some instances and not in others?? It can get a pretty confusing when you are reading about the special services that an elemental can render. I never could figure out if they were talking about only elementals or all spirits. It got a bit wierd.
And Mercy has a point, a spirit of any kind can get fed up and start playing "stupid retainer" with its master. If you pop into a crowded area and tell the elemental that you have been using as a portable spell pool (which causes them pain) to kill everyone in this room, the elemental may well start with its master.
Gabriel
PS - Has anyone ever used the Knowledge Skill "named spirits"???? It's listed in the core book and I was wondering how you adjudicated (sp) it.
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Depends on which form of rules you use. In third edition, when an elemental is used for spell pool. However, in first edition, you could buy successes with an elemental's permanent force, which additionally was VERY painful. They switched the rule around and made it so you could buy Drain test successes with an Ally spirit's permanent force which was also very painful, allowing the spirit's freedom would also allow vengeance for that pain. The Aid Sorcery ability that elemental's now have is free of that rule, the spirit's favor is just considered like a temporary one shot focus, when used up, the spirit disappears but can be called again from it's metaplane. It could be considered painful, but the 3rd edition core book never says it is one way or another.
The elemental success purchase was removed because it was terribly unbalancing. Buying a success on a spell pretty much guarantees that with enough bound fire elementals you could kill a dragon with one spell. 4 force 5 fire elementals all used for instant successes would guarantee that hitting a Great Dragon with a manabolt for 20 successes would surely kill that dragon because Dragon's have a Willpower of 9-12 meaning at least 8 successes would guarantee death, even at light damage. Very, very unbalancing.
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See, it's that "elemental can be called back again" thing that confuses me. Does that mean that the elemntal still has favors to use and that you have to get it back before it can preform them, or does it mean that you have to do the entire summoning thing again, complete with summoning material and so on?
Gabriel
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If the Elemental still owes favours, it can be called from it's home plane with (IIRC) a simple action (it may be a complex one, but I don't think so).
This is ofcourse off of memory, I'll have to check it.
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Ok, that cleared it up. Thanks.
Gabriel
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OK, now I found my book.
An Elemental can be allowed to leave for it's home metaplane.
Recalling it from there is an exclusive complex action, but any number of Elemenals of the same Element may be recalled with the same Complex Action.
Commanding the Elemental (if present) is now a simple action.
This is discussed p. 186-187, SR3, under the heading 'Binding Elementals'.
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Wiz. Thanks for the clarification.
Gabriel
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Okay, I had another question. I was looking over the Spirit powers-
Immunity to Normal Weapons, I was made to understand was just against guns- but what about melee weapons? Do those affect it differently?
Or is it just spells and foci?
-kv
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Yes, it works a bit differently against melee weapons.
Unfortunatly, I'm at work right now, and I've used that rule so rarely I'll have to look it up.
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I believe it counts as just standard armor rated at the Spirit's force, but I could be wrong. Wait until Retread checks today. He'll know the rule.
Gabriel
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When in direct (ie Melee combat) the non-spirit character attacking doesn't use their weapon or weapon skill to hit their opponent. Rather, they roll their Willpower rating for the attack. The damage done is (Charisma)M stun damage. Combat Pool may not be used by either party. The spirit resists the damage using ONLY its force rating. A reach bonus for the weapon applies, but the other attributes of the weapon do not apply. The weapon is merely a symbol of focus for the attacker.
So if I were being accosted by a force 3 water elemental that was trying to engulf me, every combat phase I could attack it with my willpower rating. Let's say mine is 5 for example. I roll 5 dice getting 1, 3, 4, 4, 11. That's 3 successes (target number is 4, provided I haven't taken any damage from the engulf power yet) My Charisma is 3, therefore I only deal 3S stun damge to the spirit. Regardless of what the spirit rolls, I deal at least moderate stun damage to the fragger.
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Okay, so melee weapons... can you simplify that?
I have to teach it to a bunch of new players.
Attacking Spirit with Melee Weapons: Willpower = Attack Dice (Target number rating of spirit?), Damage = Cha M Stun? (staged up?)
-kv
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Yep, resisted with Spirit's Force.
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See, I told you. Retread is the man when it comes to rules. I wonder if he is related to Fortune...
Gabriel
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Well, considering I haven't seen Fortune in a LOONG time, I'd say our relation is "estranged" at best, yeah?