Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => Magic and the Planes => Topic started by: kv on April 26, 2006, 11:38:12 PM
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OKay, I've been needing to start this thread for a while, but not really sure where to begin, so I've been putting it off.
Most of the runs I've been through up to this point (with my brothers Ruski and Dave) have been fairly high-tech and low-magic, which worked pretty well, because we'll all fairly high tech, and not to excited about magic.
Up until now. Recently I bought two copies of the 3rd Editon rulebook because I'm teaching my girlfirend and a group of friends to play Shadowrun. They all love it, but I have a feeling that this isn't exactly going to be the same runs I'm used to doing with my brothers. For instance, two of the new guys are already looking over the rules for mages.
So I need questions answered. They may seem basic or stupid, but I do need to understand them.
To start: How does casting and dispelling work?
It's my understanding that casting is sorcery (or spellcasting specalization) in dice, plus the spell level in dice, plus magic pool, with willpower and magic pool to resist.
What designates target numbers? Can you cast a Rating 4S Manabolt? Does a certain damage level rating have to have a certain power?
How does dispelling work? Is this just for active spells, or are you able to 'unweave' them as they're cast at you?
I'll have more soon enough, but I need to tap the magic of the minds here, so I can make sure I'm playing this right.
-kv
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OK, I'm at 'work', and don't have my books with me, so this is all just on memory, and I may have to correct myself later.
To start: How does casting and dispelling work?
It's my understanding that casting is sorcery (or spellcasting specalization) in dice, plus the spell level in dice, plus magic pool, with willpower and magic pool to resist.
No. In some edition I think you used to roll (Force) dice, but in the third, it's:
Skill (Sorcery, possibly speciality) + dice from spell pool.
Resisting drain is Willpower + dice from spell pool.
Relevant Foci add to spell pool.
SR3 p. 182
What designates target numbers? Can you cast a Rating 4S Manabolt? Does a certain damage level rating have to have a certain power?
Target numbers are designated by each spell.
It's in the spell description. Often, it's 'Target (Attribute)'
So it's usually a good idea to use a manabolt against the sammies (often have low willpower), but a powerbolt against the decker (Low body anyone?)
If it's resisted, it's resisted using the same attribute that's generating the target number.
You can (in SR3) freely pick your Force up to a max of the Force you learned the spell at. A 4S manabolt is a nice tool. Remember that combat spells ignore armour.
SR3 p. 180-183
How does dispelling work? Is this just for active spells, or are you able to 'unweave' them as they're cast at you?
I'll have to check that one for you, but I think it's only active spells. Remember that a magician can also attack and 'kill' a spell in astral space.
Yep, only active spells. SR3 p. 184.
"Unweaving 'em as they come" is Spell Defence.
Oh, and keep 'em comming, then I'll have a reason to refresh those bits.
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How does Spell Defense work, then?
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Also, you can only add dice from your sorcery skill (or specialization) up to your force rating of the spell. (In third edition).
For example. You know a Force 5 manabolt. You may choose to cast it at any force from 1-5. You will then have either 5 dice (the Force rating) or your Sorcery Skill rating (Whichever is lower). You add to that any spell pool dice used. If you had a force 2 spell, you could only roll 2 dice + spell pool.
This is on memory, (At school, books at home.)
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Ooh... that's an important feature to know.
For instance, I made a character with the idea Adept: The Path of the Mage, so he would be fast (like the rest of the group) and have magic. Of course, at this point, he has a bunch of force 2 spells, because I didn't understand the rating.
Time to go make edits.
Seriously, though, how does spell defense work?
-kv
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Ooh... that's an important feature to know.
It is also not correct.
Spellcasting is covered on p. 181-182.
You get your Sorcery worth of dice (or less, see below), and may add no more dice from your spell pool than your sorcery score (used dice), as usual with dice pools.
Seriously, though, how does spell defense work?
SR3 p. 183
Sorcery dice (and/or dice from spellpool) may be allocated to spell defence.
Once a die has been used to cast a spell, it cannot be allocated to spell defence until your next action, and vica versa.
Subjects must be on the same plane (physical versus astral) as the magician, and within (Magic Attribute x 100 m) of the caster.
You may protect no more than your sorcery skill worth of people at any given time.
Most magicians will allocate dice to protect themselves.
When a protected person is targetted by a spell, the magician may decide how many spells to use to block the incomming spell (if forexample you expect to get hit by several spells that round). This does not require an action.
Any spell defence dice allocated are rolled against the force of the spell, and any successes generated are subtracted from the casting successes of the caster.
If this reduces the spell to 0 successes (or below threshold for certain manipulation spells), the spell fizzles. Allocating dice to spell defence is a free action. See p. 183
Some initiates may use Shielding, which is a matemagical technique, and very nice.
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How do the metamagic techniques work? Centering, Masking, and Shielding, specifically?
-kv
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They're in Magic in the Shadows, and what you'll want to do is get that one and read it.
Or atleast parts of it.
The ultra abridged short-version of metamagic, focus on the mentioned techniques goes as...
To learn metamagic, one must initiate. This costs piles of Karma, and add an extra dimension to playing magicians. Literally.
One of the advantages of initiation is that one may learn a new metaagical technique each time.
Anchoring is a sort od delayed casting if spells, with trigger conditions.
Sorry, will be right back, gf was talking.
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OK, let's see:
Cleansing removes background count (astral pollution).
Divining is just what the word say. Usually not very effective though.
Invoking is used to summon great form spirits.
Possession er.. what the word says.
Quickening sustains a spell indefinently, without concentration by the magician.
Reflection a form of spell defence with tries to reflect the incomming spell back at the original caster.
certain other kinds of metamagic can be found in varios sourcebooks, they will not be mentioned here.
Centering is a pretty complex thing. Basically, the initiate uses some mundane skill (usually, but not always, an artistic or background skill) to focus more specifically on the magic. A special Skill called Centering is also used. This skill may never exceed the skill used to focus.
Centering can then be used to aither achieve extra successes on the casting roll (2 centering successes become 1 casting succes), but only if there's already a succes from normal casting.
A magician can center against drain, using the same 2-for-1 cost.
Or the initiate can Center Against Penalties, spending 2 successes on the centering roll to remove 1 point of T# penalty from any source. This may never bring the T# down below the base value, it only removes penalties.
Adepts have their own extra uses of centering, which I will ignore for the time being.
Masking is your friend. It is good. It basically allows you to alter your aura.
Non-initiates have no chance to assense through masking. Initiates may try (secret magic test against a T# equal to Essence/Magic/Force/whatever is appropriate, with a minimum number of successes required equal to the target's initiation grade, minus the viewer's initiation grade). Some spirirts (mainly free spirits with the masking power) may try as well, same check.
A masked amgician can appear (to astral senses) as a mundane,or a non-initiated magician.
An astrally percieving (and thus dual natured) magician can seem 'not astrally present'.
Masking can also hide the user'semotions (normally clearly visible in his/her aura).
An initiate using masking can also (as an exclusive action) use deliberate masking, maing it even harder to penetrate and view his/her true aura.
Either way, an amount of Force/rating of quickned spells/foci can also be masked, making them invisible from astral space, and thus untargettable.
Further foci can be hidden via deliberate masking.
shielding works a lot like spell defence, and these techniques may be used simltaneously, but not to protect the same individuals.
Dice allocated to Shielding are added to the Spell Resistance roll of the target (see SR3 p. 183). Thsi works against all spells, including elemental manipulations. Additionally, shielding increases the T# of any spell against the protected individual by +1/spell allocated, to a maximum of the initiate's initiation grade. Multiple initiates can stack their shielding.
MitS contains the full rules (p 70-79), and an example of shielding on p. 79
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AHEM! Dice pools do not refresh until the next TURN, not next action. Therefore, if you're a mage with wired reflexes and you blow your entire spell pool on your first action you won't have any until initiative is rerolled on the next combat turn. Skills are not considered dice pools and refresh after every instance of their use.
Spell defense is like the opposite of casting the spell. The dice allocated can "attack" any spell cast at the targets with the allocated defense, this includes objects which aren't directly on a person. A magician can allocate sorcery and spell pool dice to any number of targets up to their Sorcery skill. Allocating spell defense is a free action and therefore cannot be used before the magician's action. Meaning, if you're surprised and don't already have spell defense activated, tough krill-cookies. Spell pool allocated to spell defense that is NOT used (ie. rolled) may be reallocated on the players next action. If it is used, the caster must wait until the next combat turn for their pool to be refreshed. Sorcery Dice used in spell defense are lost until the next action whence they may be reallocated (assumed to be automatic unless asked otherwise)
Let's use an example. Sparky the cybermage has a really crappy spell pool of 2 (cyberware and brain-damage do that to you) He was a good mage though, so his sorcery is 6. He can sacrifice his spell pool for spell defense. That leaves him with 2 dice to use until his next combat turn. If he instead allocated 2 sorcery dice, he'd have 2 dice to use to resist BETWEEN each action he gets. Meaning, if he gets 3 actions and gets hit with a spell every initiative pass, provided he allocates sorcery dice, he can resist with those two dice every time. However, if he had used spell pool he could only resist once with 2 dice or twice with 1 die each time. Depending on how the GM feels, spell defense, once declared is considered maintained until dropped.
Spells may also be multicast, however, doing so increases the drain target number by 2 per spell beyond the first for ALL spells cast. Sorcery and spell pool are split up according to the spell. At least one Sorcey die must be designated for each separate spell. Therefore, you can only cast a number of spells equal to your sorcery skill per complex action. Of course, casting 6 spells at once will raise your target number to resist drain by 12 and probably fail or do very little as a result of having very few dice.
Don't forget, when casting spells to include vision penalties. The rule of thumb is, if only part of the target is visual then there is a vision penalty. A target that cannot be seen cannot be cast upon. As a basis, in normal ranged combat, an enemy that is fired at (presuming you have a general idea of where the target is) but cannot be seen, adds a +8 target number. However, when using magic, the target must be seen, therefore, there is no blind fire penalty because it is impossible. If only 1 eighth or less of a target for a spell is seen, then a +7 target penalty is applied and every fraction thereof. To simplify you can say:
76-100% = +0
51-75% = +2
25-50% = +4
1-25% = +6
Blind = No target acquired
Other penalties add on as well. Visual penalties never go over +8. It's up to the GM if magic is possible when the visual penalty is +8.
Don't forget, also that spells that are sustained by the magician add a +2 to all their target numbers (save Damage resistance tests, like drain or combat damage)
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I believe that Rootless and Retread deserve a "Woot! Woot!" for that. . .
Nicely done. And thank you.
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AHEM! Dice pools do not refresh until the next TURN, not next action.
Ah yes, you are correct. My bad.
Except as... well, see below.
Therefore, if you're a mage with wired reflexes and you blow your entire spell pool on your first action you won't have any until initiative is rerolled on the next combat turn.
Well, a mage with wired reflexes has problems of his own.
An adept on the Magicians path would be in the same boat though.
Skills are not considered dice pools and refresh after every instance of their use.
You're absolutely right, except for in this specific case.
I thought it was pretty starnge too, but appearantly, one should think of sorcery as a sort of special 'pool' of dice that can be divided between casting and spell defence, and which refreshes at each action, not each turn (presumably because it's not really a dice pool, it just shares some of the behaviour).
Again though, I really recommend reading through pages 180-183 as the absolute bare minimum. But ofcourse, I buy rule-/sourcebooks to read them, don't I.
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Well, my problem is at the moment that I'm teaching a new group to play, at the same time that I'm trying to refresh my memory of rules I understand, at the same time learning new things. Magic in Shadowrun has never really been my strong suite.
In any case, this was all very helpful. I agree with Curris. A WOOT WOOT is definitely in order.
So the sorcery skill, as dice, refreshes every action, but sorcery dice allocated to spell defense only refresh every combat pass.
How do sustained spells work? I read they have a +2 for drain, but are there any other benefits/disadvantages? For instance, a sustained armor spell.
-kv
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A sustained spell basically means that it keeps going until dropped.
Example: A mage casts the armor spell, at Force 6.
This adds 6 points of armor to each of impact and balistic rating.
This should not interfere with combat pool, but does stack with normal armor.
However, this benefit only sticks around while the spell is being maintained.
The caster can do this automatically, but while doing so suffers a +2 to all T#s, including drain tests, per spell maintained. The only exception is damage resistance tests, which are unmodified. It does however include all casting rolls, driving checks and what-not.
Dropping maintainance of a spell is a free action (or perhaps absence of action).
If you intend to use the edge/flaw system, I strongly recommend spending 2 points on focused concentration, which reduces this penalty to +1 per spell maintained.
Permanent spells (such as healing spells) have to be maintained for a number of rounds before actually becomming permanent.
A sustaining focus sustains a spell for you, so that you don't have to concentrate on it (meaning you don't have to pay the T# penalty).
It is important though to remember that you do not take the maintainig penalty on the drain test for the spell itself when cast - that's already buildt in - only if you cast another spell while maintaining the first one.
Did this answer your question?
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Just remember, Kid_Vid, sustaining foci are your freinds! Get a few (or pick them off of dead bodies) and bond the to your mages/shamans and then have some fun. Of course, if your PC's start over-using them, they can get into Focus Addiction (loss of magic points) or have the foci attacked in astral combat (there goes time, money, and karma). As far as it goes, I would spend a night and read the magic section from begenning to end one night and DON'T SKIP AROUND!!!! That can lead to some really strange problems, and I know this from experience. You know how that book is arranged, so some very critical statements are hidden in unlikely places. Trust me, it is worth your time.
Also, don't think of Sorcery or Conjuring as pools, they are skills. Sorcery dice don't refresh because you never deplete them. Spell pool works ONLY for spell-related magic tests. Conjuring gets NO dice pools for either the act or fro draining excpet for Karma Pool and assorted foci if you have them.
And don't worry, magic is pretty easy to get down when it comes to the basics. I've found that it is very similar to the decking rules, so start drawing some parallells and make some notes. If you like, I have some cheat sheets you can have. Just let me know if you want them.
Gabriel
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I would appreciate any cheat sheets I can get. Not only am I learning this for pretty much the first time myself, but I'm also teaching it to a group of six people. With me as the only experienced player.
A scary thought, I know.
Okay, so how does controlling/banishing spirits work? Summoning? What's this about resisting summoning drain with Charisma?
-kv
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A mage resists summoning drain with Charisma. Think of it like this: the mage/shaman sends out a call into the astral to summon the nature of the place he is/situation he is in/element of choice and the spirits respond. It is taxing and takes persuasion and concentration, therfore it is reflected with Charisma and the drain is applied accordingly. As for banishing a spirit, that's covered on the cheat sheet.
I'll e-mail you the cheat, but also check those CD's I sent to Ruski. CD #3 has some issues of the Shadowrun Supplimental (including the one that I got published in) and at the back of one of the later issues is a set of 4 magician cheat sheets that have a TON of great information in a very concise format. I have them printed out and stuck in my GM folder. Find them and give them to your mage players. Trust me, this will help a ton.
Gabriel
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Summoning in a nutshell:
For mages, it requires a Ritual Circle rated at least of the force of the spirit to be summoned and is defined by the type. A ritual ciricle is Force x meters in Radius. Circles may NOT cross each other. It takes Rating hours to draw a circle using chalk (5 nuyen per point) A higher rated circle may be used for summoning a lower rating spirit, mind you, the circle is just a protection against the reckless and unconditioned spirit. Addtionally, a material for the spirit to reside in is required relative to the force of the spirit (greater force = more material) Air elementals need burning incense or smoke, fire elementals an open flame, earth needs rock or clay, and water needs (relatively) clean water. You also need ritual materials which are random gew-gaws and expendables for the rituals, costing 1,000 nuyen per force. The magician must also have a Conjuring hermetic library available of at least the rating of the spirit (the cost of these is Rating^2x1,000 nuyen.
The ritual takes a number of hours equal to the spirit's force (Force 12 spirits are very hard to summon without lots of caffeine/stimulants) To successfully summon the spirit, the magician must perform the ritual as an Exclusive action, meaning no other spells may be directly sustained or cast during the ritual. The magician then rolls her Conjuring skill + any spirit focus or mage class advantage dice available. The magician can allocate conjuring dice to resist drain as well. The target number for this test is the Force of the spirit. If no successes are rolled, the spirit never arrives but all the ritual materials are used up (save the element used) The number of successes indicates how many services the Mage gets from the spirit.
Drain is then rolled, the damage level is variable based on the relation of the summoner's charisma rating and the force of the spirit:
Spirits Force is: Drain Level is:
1/2 of summoner's Charisma L
Summoner's Charisma or less M
Greater than Summoner's Charisma S
Greater than 1.5 x Summoner's Charisma D
If the spirit's force is greater than the summoner's magic rating, the drain does physical damage. In a healthy magician, this means summoning a force 8 Spirit usually leads to death. This drain is resisted with Charisma against a target number equal to the spirit's force.
If the conjurer is knocked out or killed the spirit becomes uncontrolled. Roll a Force (6) test for the elemental. If one success is generated, the spirit flees back to it's home metaplane. If none are generated the spirit goes berserk and starts combat with the nearest living thing using its powers to its fullest. It won't stop until killed, banished, or controlled by another mage.
Nature spirits follow this same pattern but instead of a lengthy ritual, they may be summoned on the fly without materials but their strength and utility is much less than that of an elemental. Summoning a nature spirit is a Complex action, using the same rules as above for Success test and Drain. Nature spirits never become berserk and simply disappear when uncontrolled. A nature spirit only lasts from dusk till dawn or vice versa. Therefore, summoning a spirit at 10 AM will allow you to use the spirit until Dusk (6-9PM variably) Any services left over are gone at this time.
To banish a spirit you roll your Conjuring skill + spirit foci or totem modifiers against the spirit's force using an Exclusive Complex Action (no spells sustained) and the spirit rolls it's force against the banishing magician's Magic attribute. Also, if the magician that is banishing the spirit is the spirit's summoner, they may add their Charisma to the dice rolled. If the banisher gets more successes, reduce the spirit's force by a number equal to the net successes. If the spirit wins, reduce the magician's Magic attribute by the net successes. After the first round of banishment, the winner gets to decide if the battle will continue. This is of course, provided neither the magician nor the spirit are disrupted.
If the spirit reaches 0 force, it is destroyed and is removed from both the physical and astral planes. If the banisher is reduced to 0 Magic, they pass out, taking deadly stun damage and must also check for Magic Loss. (Magic (Magic) test, failure = 1 lost Magic point)
Magic and Force lost in this manner recover at a rate of 1 per hour.
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Does this work for say, Insect Spirits, too?
-kv
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Banishing, yes.
Summoning: basically yes, but then again no, as they need a host body and all that. Also only NPCs should summon bug spirits, so it's OK to fudge a bit.
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Yeah, if you get a bug shaman in your group, just let the other PC's have fun killing them or selling them to the Draco Foundation.
Gabriel
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I haven't introduced them to bug or toxic shamans yet. Those are concepts for later adventures.
So, what is the difference between an elemental and a spirit?
-kv
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Aside from the differences in summoning, as Retread pointed out, here is a big difference
Spirits must exist in their domains and only in their domains. For instance, Sky spirits exist in open airy areas, and can not be made to go underground, or underwater, or into stuffy buildings (usually). Hearth spirits can't leave their building (Good to know when running for your life!)
In order to be summoned, the shaman must be in the spirits domain.
Elementals are not hampered by this, they can go anywhere.
Also Spirits just last for the day, Elementals last for quite awhile.
There are more differences, and it would be better to have some of the more informed tell you about it, but that's a small token of what of I pull out of memory at midnight. . .
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My preference is for shamans because they can summon a spirit. They can do this as a Complex (IIRC) Action as needed. A mage has to preform a ritual that is as long in hours as the elemental is strong in force. They have to pay ¥1,000 per force point in materials and creat a circle that takes as many hours as force point of the elemental to create. On the up-side, elementals can share their force rating to add to a mage's spell pool. They can stay "on call" in astral space for a long time. And they can manifest in any domain not in opposition of their nature. That is to say a fire elemantal can't pop up under water without taking major damage instantly.
All of that aside, with spirits you have a bit more thinking to do because quite often spirit domains overlap. For instance, a hearth spirit, forest spirt, and sky spirit may be able to be summoned in a building's roof-top garden. A city spirit could be summoned in the middle of the street, as could a storm spirit if the weather is right. And as Curris pointed out, spirits cannot cross outside of their domains.
ANd on that note, I wanted an opinion on hearth spirits. There was this cat that lived in my girlfriend's old appartment comlpex that I joked around must be the spirit of the place since it got into everyone's units and never seemed to be sick or worn out or hungry. The comment got me thinking that if you summoned a hearth spirit in a multi-building complex with open green courtyards, wouldn't its domain end at the property line as opposed to a building's wall? After all, the entire facility is concidered one complex and thus could fall within a hearth domain since people live there. Persoannly, I say it would work, but I am interested to know everyone else's take on the situation.
Gabriel
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sorry, I'm still bothered about when a player suggested summoning a hearth spirit in the middle of a park, because "hey, look at all 'em squatters, somebody sure do live here!"
I try to avaid shamans these days.
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That's a good point.
Gabriel
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Well, it is, isn't it.
I think mages are less of a headache.
Or mambos, or psionics, or whatever...
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See, I'm the opposite on that. It's really just the domain thing that gives me a bit of pause for shamans, but I still think that by and large, they are the easier ones to play. Just one elf's opinion.
Gabriel
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I would rule that the whole complex would be listed as the domain, since the mental/emotional/astral imprint that created it would believe it all is part of the living space.
An analagous statement is, can your hearth spirit stand in your backyard? I'd say probably. . .
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Okay so spirits = shamans, summoned on the fly.
elementals = mages, summoned over the course of hours.
What about watcher spirits? What are they, and how do they work?
And So how do wards work? What does the force of wards do to affect spells? How do you break a ward? (circle?) What is the affect when you do?
How common are wards or circles? How expensive to make?
-kv
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Wards are astral barriers. They can be broken thruogh in normal astral combat against them with the ward getting stats based on its force. Now, if you break through a ward, it doesn't neccessarily destroy it (you have to check on this though since ti's been a while) but will allow the PC who broke through to pass into it. Wards also effect LOS in astral space. If you want to see through a ward, you have a visibility modifier equal to the ward's force. Oh, and whenever you take on a ward, the one who set the ward will know about it. Lodges and Circles are considered to be their own wards and are equal to the force of the Lodge or Circle involved.
Gabriel
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Wards are discussed on p. 174 of the SR3 core book.
Watchers on p. 100-102 in MitS.
Summoning watchers require no special equipment and can be performed at any time.
Maxforce is (Magic rating of conjurer)/2.
To summon, roll conjuring against your chosen Force, each success gives it one hour duration.
Drain is (Force+lifetime-in-hours)L stun. (resisted using charisma)
You may choose to give it a shorter lifetime to lessen drain.
They can also be summoned for longer time, but this carries a price in summoning materials and/or karma.
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So, what sort of activities can a watcher spirit do? Watch? Guard? Report back? Carry messages back and forth?
I also read that solid ground can't be passed though in astral form- how thick does ground have to be to be considered 'solid' like this?
-kv
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Solid ground can be moved through at a rate of (Magic) meters per hour. This only applies to living earth, that is, soil or natural rock. The earth itself has an aura but its aura is slightly diffuse and astral forms can pass through it. Concrete or laid stone or whatever, can be passed through like nothing because it is like dead skin from the planet.
A watcher can do anything a regular spirit can, but it has no "powers" like other spirits. It's just a little astral "critter" that can do menial tasks. A watcher can manifest, but it cannot materialize, therefore, it cannot affect the physical plane. Watchers can find people by searching for them, to give messages, etc. As a watcher can manifest, it can do all sorts of annoying things like insult someone for hours on end, tail people, spy, whatever. Watchers aren't terribly tech savvy and are very bad at remembering things like numbers or math. They can remember conversations but get fuzzy with the details. They have the intellect of a loyal but stupid dog, basically. They also get confused easily if you try to give them orders with too many conditions. Essentially, treat them like Drones given a command and have them make a Force test against a target number for the complexity of those actions.
Being astral beings, watchers can attack anything on the astral plane. They usually look like a miniature version of their summoner's astral form.
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Was it SR1 or SR2 that stated that an astral form couldn't pass through other living forms? I remember reasing that someplace and I know it's not current cnaon rules. I remember it because the situation was that a projecting astral form couldn't get into this underground area through the erath, so it tried going through the normal door/coridor and coun't make it through that way because of all the algea and mold and nastiness on the walls. It sounds way out of date, but for the life of me, I can't think of where I read it.
Gabriel
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Well, don't they have that stuff specifically designed to keep astral travellers out? Biofibre? (NSRCG says reference is SR3-pg 292, but it's not there)
The reason I brought up the underground thing was because that was specifically stated in the 3rd Edition books (pg. 173) that underground facilities were safe from Astral intrusion.
I was wondering how well that worked, but they would have to build facilities hundreds of meters underground in order for it to be effective.
Does anyone else have info on Biofibre?
-kv
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Biofiber page 80 Magic in the Shadows
Biofiber is a form of bio-engineered plant life similar to wood, grown in large flat sheet. Biofiber is naturally dual-natured, existing on both the astral and phsycial planes simulataneously. So long as the biofiber is keep alive (using complex nutrients), it functions as a barrier against astral forms, just like a physical wall. The biofiber has a Force Rating like any other astral barrier and functions in the same manner (p.174 SR3). Biofiber sheets are placed inside the walls of high-security areas, provided with nutrients and carefully monitored. Destroying the astral barrier kills the biofiber.
Biofiber is notoriously sensitive and difficult to maintain. It costs 100 nuyen times Force per square meter and requires 5 nuyen per square meter in nutrients and care per month. Biofiber is available in a maximum Force Rating of 10.
Curris's last words. It's astral barriers for those who can not create them on their own. So good passive astral defense, even for mundanes. It's expensive though, and if it's broken down, no one will know. (IE, A mage/shaman is aware of their barriers being broken, but Biofiber isn't linked to a creator, since it's naturally grown.)
page 80 and 81 of Magic in the shadows also has information on Guardian Vines, Flouresing Astral Bacteria, and other astral defenses (both the lethal and non- kind.)
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I don't actually currently have a copy of Magic in the Shadows. There was a little three-card-montey with the books my brothers and I play from, and I'm not completely sure where all of them ended up.
In fact, I had to buy new copies of the SR3 to teach these new guys how to play, which led me to re-learn some rules, which led to this thread.
-kv
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So. Anyway.
How do firearms and spirits work? I know they're supposed to stage down, but how exactly do weapons work against spirits?
-kv
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To even be a valid target for a firearm, a spirit has to Materialize (p. 264 SR3).
Materialization power includes the power Immunity to Normal Weapons (Same page ref).
Immunity to Normal Weapons
gives the spirit an "armor rating" equal to twice it's Essence...
In addition, if the Power of the attack does not exceed twice the creature's Essence, it automatically has no effect.
and
... has no effect against combat spells or weapon foci. Against elemental damage (such as fire, water cannons, elemental manipulation spells and so on), the effect is halved (Armor Rating equal to Essence). APDS, AVM and other Armor Piercing ammunitions are treated as normal ammunition against creatures with theis power
Spirits always have an Essence equal to their Force, so a Force 5 spirit has perfect protection against heavy pistols (Damage Code 9M (or possibly 10M), neither of which exceeds 2x5 = 10).
As described on p. 188 (SR3), a character in close combat can circumvent this by attacking it with "his personality" (willpower) instead of trying to damage it with an item.
Also: if you want to play with a lot of magic, get MitS, it's very useful, I feel.
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I was wondering how well that worked, but they would have to build facilities hundreds of meters underground in order for it to be effective.
Basically, I think that statement is an artifact from an earlier edition, but.
Remember that an astrally projecting magician losses (temporarily) 1 point of Essence per hour you're out. If you can penetrate (magic rating) meters of earth per hour a shiny newfangled magician (Essence 6, Magic 6) can penetrate a maximum of 36 meters of earth. And still has to come back up, so make that more like 15-18 meters. A lot, but hardly 'hundreds of meters'.
It's by farm easier to go in through whatever shafts had to be dug to build the facility, but they're likely to be warded and/or guarded by mages/elementals/dual natured paracrittes/what- ever-have-you.
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Hey Kid_Vid,
Get off of your lazy hoop and go get those CD's I sent to Ruski a while back. They have ALL of the books on them. Some copies aren't perfect (missing a page or two) but they are FREE!!!! So go get 'um.
Gabriel
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AIE! \/\/@|23Z p\/\/|\| j00!
In essence, a spirit is rarely defeated by normal weapons. That isn't to say that a spirit isn't harmed by other seemingly normal things like fire, ice, concussion grenades (Blast elemental) or otherwise. For example, an air elemental has a vulnerability towards earth. That means that you'd be much better off throwing a rock at an air elemental than shooting it with your non-natural high-tech weaponry. If you're mundane and are going spirit hunting, I'd recommend picking up a laser weapon. Sure, it's expensive, but it's much better than getting close to that fire elemental to engage it in a contest of wills.
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So every spirit that can materialize has that weapon immunity?
-kv
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Yes.
It's part of the Materialization Power.
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This includes bug spirits, some of which also have hardened armor, meaning they can take a tank shell unfazed.
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If I'm not mistaken, the immunity to normal weapons doe snot affect the adjusted power of the weapon. So a force 4 City Spirit would just shrug off an 8M sword thrust, but would have to roll dice if you dikoted the sword, increasing the power to 10M. It's not much, but it is a bit. Also, doesn't this apply to burst-fire and full-automatic wepons fire? A 9M gun firing on Burst would jump to a 12S (I think, I haven't had any coffe yet) thus, leaving the City Spirit to roll against a 4S wound. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Gabriel
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So it lowers the power of the attack, as opposed to staging down the damage?
In the Bug City book, a cockroach spirit is listed as having a certain armor, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't equal to twice it's essence.
-kv
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Bug City is a very old book.
Also, if it's a bug spirit, it may well have been a fleshform wearing an armor jacket (or whatever).
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This includes bug spirits, some of which also have hardened armor, meaning they can take a tank shell unfazed.
Where did you find this Retread?
It's not in my MitS, that I can find.
They get immunity to Normal Damage, but I can't find a referance that it should be hardened?
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Hmmm... so I guess that's 2nd Editon Bug Spirits.
But does the damage reduction work that way? Lowers the power? I was under the impression that it automatically staged down the damage one level, and never staged up... or something like that.
-kv
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Nope, the immunity subtracts straight of off the power.
Gabriel
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Hrm... I don't have my MitS book handy, maybe that was in the Bug City book? Beetle spirits had hardened armor in 2nd edition.
Also, I think that the damage from burst fire doesn't count as the Immunity power is treated like hardened armor. That is to say, an 8M single fire wouldn't penetrate a force 4 spirit even in burst fire. Hardened Military grade armor is the same way, when the attack doesn't go over the armor rating when unmodified for burst fire, it has no effect the same way. If one bullet bounces off, they all do.
KV, you're thinking of vehicle armor. Vehicle armor stages normal non-vehicle damage down one level. Immunity from Normal Weapons acts as armor, meaning it reduces the power by twice its force. So a 10S attack would be a 2S attack. The spirit could resist all the damage easily if it blew its entire combat pool to do so. Body 4 + 4 combat pool.
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What about flechette?
-kv
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Flechette is resisted using higher of (balistic armor) or (twice impact armor), isn't it?
That's 4xEssence.
Or think about it this way: You're shooting at a being composed of air and astral energies. How much do you think it'll be bothered by a gun shot? Also, I don't think the damaged is staed up, spirits are emminently armored targets.
Mind you, these answeres are interpretations. I don't recall having seen any official rules on the subject.
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So far, I can't find anything about Immunity to Normal Weapons giving hardened armor benefits. So if that's the case, then the "up staging" due to burst and autofire seems to work on bugs. I guess they didn't bring the hardened armor rules over from 2nd edition. That kind of sucks. It makes bugs weaker than they were, which reduces the threat all around for those nasty little critters.
Gabriel
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Well, moreover, a force 10 bug spirit is still very scary. Especially if it's that free Wasp spirit at the top of that tower in Chicago.
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well if it was a ape spirt it would have to go to new york
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An ape spirit, by contention would be a Greater Form Nature Spirit. These spirits take on the form of their summoner's totem or Idol (generally) Additionally, an Avatar could be an Ape spirit, but it would technically never do anything in the physical world.
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Retread, you should be smacked for ruining such a sucinct one-line joke. Bad, BAD Retread!!!!
Gabriel
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Ahem, fine then:
I'll just have to summon this force 20 Moth spirit in Hawa'ii then...
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LOL, only if you can find two REALLY tiny Japanese women to warn everyne about it first. ;)
But since we are on the topic of bug spirits, do the flesh form spirits get any of the regular spirit powers of the normal true form spirits??? MiTS seems to say that a flesh form spirit is really just a freaky looking critter with stats based on those of an NPC. A "good merge" seems to get the better end of ths stick, but still no spirit powers. Can anyone clarify this for me?
Also, in the description of a "good merge" flesh form spirit, it states that they do NOT get hardened armor, but can wear body armor. This statement seems to insinuate that other types of flesh form spirits DO get hardened armor, but I can't find that stated anywhere. These rules seem to be very badly organized and only partially thought out.
Gabriel
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Flesh forms are the same as their true-form counterparts save a few things:
They have no natural armor. The second number in their stat-listing under Body is their natural armor rating for true-form. Therefore, a true-form beetle spirit has a natural armor of Force x 2. I imagine, this is cumulative with the Immunity to Normal Weapons granted by materialization. It's not recommended fighting fighting beetle spirits with guns...
They cannot be banished because they are melded to the host.
They are not weak against insecticides.
They do not Materialize and as such, the materialize power is void.
They are dual-natured, and therefore, have no Astral Reaction. Use their physical reaction instead.
Flesh-form workers are weaker but have the ability of "Skill" which gives them a skill at summoning equal to their force. Additionally, their physical attributes are reduced by 1. Solitary insects are considered soldiers and have no worker form.
Good merges come out with all the skills and knowledge of their host, which implies spells and whatnot.
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So. You're saying you CAN banish bug spirits?
-kv
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Yes.
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So, Retread, except for armor, a Flesh Form has all of the listed powers of its spirit type???
Gabriel
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Yes.
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Except that it can't be banished. So, what is the physical initiative for a flesh-form?
-kv
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The same as a normal spirit: Reaction + 10 + 1d6. You try catching a fly and tell me they don't go fast :D
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I can catch flies bare-handed... but nevermind.
Okay, so fleshforms are more dangerous than I had been led to believe.
I actually downloaded the UB and Chicago soucebooks, just to have the info for a Chicago-run.
-kv
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Bugs are scary in general, Kid. You can see why they were a problem. Additionally, true-form spirits are considered double their force with regards to banishing.
Keep in mind that the "average" insect spirit is force 3, and the average human has stats of 3. So your basic flesh-form ant worker would have Physical attributes of 2 but be very fast by the nature of their spirit.
By their nature, true-forms are more powerful and dangerous, which is why insect mothers/queens add a penalty to the host's willpower test. The queen wants the the host to turn into a true form. However, when the personality of the host overtakes the spirit, the spirit cannot become true and so becomes imprisoned in the flesh, an incomplete creation.
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Actually, I have another question that I need answered (a couple of questions, to be honest)
I found an interesting tidbit on page 191, under where it says 'Drain.'
Drain consists of a modifier to the Drain's Power (based on half the spell's force, rounded down) and the drain level, the base damage the drain causes.
Am I reading that right? The drain is HALF the target number for the spell?
So, what determines the 'force' of a spell? I thought I understood the concept, but I was reading the magic section again tonight, and this just struck me. What about spells with set target numbers such as armor, or elemental manipulations, which are treated as ranged attacks?
Can someone clear this up for me?
-kv
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Actually, I have another question that I need answered (a couple of questions, to be honest)
I found an interesting tidbit on page 191, under where it says 'Drain.'
Drain consists of a modifier to the Drain's Power (based on half the spell's force, rounded down) and the drain level, the base damage the drain causes.
Am I reading that right? The drain is HALF the target number for the spell?
So, what determines the 'force' of a spell? I thought I understood the concept, but I was reading the magic section again tonight, and this just struck me. What about spells with set target numbers such as armor, or elemental manipulations, which are treated as ranged attacks?
Can someone clear this up for me?
Not having my book with me, I can't give you page number, but here goes.
To cast a spell, look up the target number in the spell description. Often it is static (4 for most elemental manipulations) but even more often, it depends on your target (manabolt says willpower, which means the target number is the willpower of your target). This is why why you use manabolts and the like against sammies with more brawns than brains. Any armor they wear will be ignored, and a lot of them have low willpower. Most illusions use itelligence, IIRC. If they are noted as 'resisted', they are resisted using the same attribute..
This is completely independant of the Force of the spell.
Please repeat this after me
'completely independant of the Force of the spell'
'completely independant of the Force of the spell'
'completely independant of the Force of the spell'
Right. The Force of the spell does nothing for the caster's target number. What the Force does varies by spell.
in the 3rd edition, healing spells can heal no more boxes of damage than their Force. Damage spells have a damage code based on their Force (as in (Force)S, if you choose to cast them at serious).
For a spell like levitation, force gives you (together with successes) how fast you move the affected object.
For many detection spells, it's a factor in range.
A magician learns a given spell at a specific (max) force.
It can then be cast at this force or lower. Thus it is always an advantage to know a spell at the highest force you can get, as you can always cast it at any force you like, up to this max.
If you cast a spell at a force higher than your magic attribute, drain is physical damage, so don't do that.
Drain is based on half the force used in the specific casting of the spell. (often with some modifier).
Exemplia Gratioa:
My character casts his lightning bolt. At the moment, I don't recall the drain code, so let's just say it's +3(V)
It's an elemental manipulation, so my target number is 4 (that's in the spell profile, top of the description).
I decide to cast it at force 4, because I don't want to kill myself with the drain (I know it at force 10, but I'm not really interested in killing myself with all that power!). and I decide to cast it at M (it's an elemental manipulation spell, so I can choose this freely). Then my drain is ((4/2)+3)M = 5M, resisted using willpower and possibly dice from the spell pool (or whatever it's called these days). My target would take a damage of 4M, half impact armor.
If I'd decided to cast it at Force 10 (I really need to take that guy down, right now!), my target number to cast would still be 4 (it's static, see the spell description), but drain would be ((10/2)+3)M = 8M (assuming it's still cast at M). It's also likely to be physical unless I'm a really hotshot initiate or something like that.
My target would take 10M, again with only half impact armor.
If instead I'd gone for a manabolt (I seem to recall drain as (V), check for yourself), it'd have looked like this:
I know the spell at Force 6, and I'm gonna use all of it. Force 6 it is.
Then I would've rolled my spell casting dice against a target number equal to my victem's willpower.
My drain would be 3M (still casting spells at M, even though I caould've gone for L,S or even D).
He would take damage of 6M (physical, no armor), which would not in any way be affected by his body, since technically, all he get's is a spell defence test, based on his willpower (against my force of 6) and any dice he got from spell defence.
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And all of THAT is without having his book with him. Great Ghost, Retread, I think you must sleep with these things under your pillow. ;)
Gabriel
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Well, that was ROOTless saying that :P
Elemental manipulations always have a drain level 1 higher than the damage they are cast at:
L damage lightning bolt is (F/2)M
However, elemental manipulations that do stun damage (like water or smoke, yes there's a smoke element) reduce the drain target number by 1. So my specialty Saltwater Blast would have a drain code of ((F/2)-1)((Damage Level)+1).
Saltwater Blast adds +1 to the damage penalty for physical wounds, implying the salt rubbing into open cuts, burns, and bullet wounds.
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Well, that was ROOTless saying that :P
Whoops!!! Sorry about that, Retread.
Gabriel
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Ah yes, I only just remembered in the bus on my way home.
Also please not that damage from damage causing spells are staged up (and down) as normal, which is not included in the examples above.
Oh and Gabe, I don't sleep with books under my pillow at night. I get headaches when I do.
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Okay, so for an example (thanks for all of that, by the way, ROOT. You and Retread are being HUGE helps with all of this stuff)
I have a magicial using the path of the adept. I have to take "Path of the Magician" as my adpet powers to get any spellcasting ability, right? In any case, I end up with two levels of "Path of the Magician" (I'm assuming I'm doing this correctly- feel free to nudge me in the right direction)
So I have an adept who moves fairly quickly (level 2 improved reflexes) who can cast spells.
Now, the problem I have is... I have a magic rating of 8. I was mistaken in thinking that the level of spells that you learned added dice to the spellcasting test (something I think I heard from 4th Edtion, and got confussled), so I got most of (if not all of) my spells at level 2.
Does this mean that all of my spells are cast at 2(Damage Level)? So I can't heal more than 2 boxes of Damage? (That works fine for me, I'm just asking for clarification.
Since I would have the same target numbers, is there any hindrance I would have, other than having really easy tests to resist?
I mean, I don't mind having a guy using his willpower 2 to resist my manabolt- I can cast another one in half a second anyway. Are there any severe limitations I'm not seeing?
The idea is, after this run I'll initiate, and rather than spending more points on adept powers, I can spend them to get more levels of "Path of the Magician," which will make me much more powerful.
-kv
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adpet powers to get any spellcasting ability, right? In any case, I end up with two levels of "Path of the Magician" (I'm assuming I'm doing this correctly- feel free to nudge me in the
Well, effectively yes. Thus you have a Magic Attribute of 2
So I have an adept who moves fairly quickly (level 2 improved reflexes) who can cast spells.
Now, the problem I have is... I have a magic rating of 8. I was mistaken in thinking that the level of spells that you learned added dice to the spellcasting test (something I think I heard from 4th Edtion, and got confussled), so I got most of (if not all of) my spells at level 2.
Of 8, how? Initiation, adept geasa abuse?
Or are you just mixing names to confuse me by using the wrong names? ;)
You should still have something like 12 points to buy spells for (according to my copy of MitS), for spell Force ratings up to 6. Though you might want to take them somewhat lower with a magic of only 2.
If you have Improved reflexes 2 (costs 4 points), this sounds reasonable enough.
Does this mean that all of my spells are cast at 2(Damage Level)? So I can't heal more than 2 boxes of Damage? (That works fine for me, I'm just asking for clarification.
No, they are cast at whatever Force you like, up to a maximum of the Force at which you learned the spell
You might well then learn things like manabolt at force 4.
Though you'll take physical drain when you cast it, it'll have a drain power of only 2, so with a decent willpower, you should be able to cast it at M and still take no damage (from 2M).
This would mean you couldn't heal more than 2 boxes at a time, assuming you're casting the spell at Force 2. Mind you, there's no reason ever to cast that spell above medium, so you'd take a drain of 1M (1's always fail, so it'll be effectively identical to a 2M, but stun), or you can learn it at force 4, drain 2M physical, with the option of using spell pool dice to resist drain.
Since I would have the same target numbers, is there any hindrance I would have, other than having really easy tests to resist?
Given the structure of your sentence, do you perhaps mean advantage instead of hiderance?
With a max force of 2, damaging spells will be of very low use I suspect (depending on how much you squeeze your spell pool I guess), so you'll like want a lot of utility spells.
They will be easy to dispel, and resist if relevant.
If you use a mind control spell, you'll roll against you opponent's willpower, and your opponent will roll willpower against the Force of your spell, here 2.
I mean, I don't mind having a guy using his willpower 2 to resist my manabolt- I can cast another one in half a second anyway. Are there any severe limitations I'm not seeing?
The idea is, after this run I'll initiate, and rather than spending more points on adept powers, I can spend them to get more levels of "Path of the Magician," which will make me much more powerfull
Congratulations grashopper.
Remember though that you'll still need to spend karma on learning new spells.
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I'm not sure you can make a character from scratch with a Magic attribute of 8 without initiating. However, every level of Magical Power purchased with Magic points counts as one effective level of Magic for casting spells, this includes spell pool and force limits. There is no limit on the dice rolled for stats, like willpower for drain tests. The player simply has more limits on the strength of their spells as a cost for the additional adept powers.
Keep in mind also that when a Magician's path adept initiates they do so differently than normal mages. When initiating, the magic point is considered to go directly towards the character's magical power if they choose to learn Metamagic, if they want adept powers, they must forego the metamagic to allocate the Magic point as a Power point.
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I meant to say Magic 6. So... my Magic is efectively 2, because of the path of magician powers? So I would need to buy more adept points, taking more levels of path of the Magician... doesn't that automatically increase my spellpoints? (Going from rating 2 to 3?)
-kv
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OK, let's see.
MitS says you have to spend 3 points on improved reflexes 2. Without ugly manipulations, that leaves you with 3 points to spend on other adept powers, or on your magic attriibute.
Remember that your magic attribute technically is an adept power, with a price of 1/level.
Normally, a starting full magician gets 25 points with which to buy spells and all that (while an aspected one gets 35). MitS indicated that an adept on the magician's way gets 6 points/point in magic attribute, so a magic attribute of 3 would net you 18. An almost respectable number.
If you decide to go with just 2 in magic attribute (and 1 more point of adept powers, of whichever kind you like), you get only 12 points.
During character creation, you can exchange 25,000 nuyen for an extra point, to a maximum of 50.
These free spell points only occur during character creation (MitS p.22), after play starts, you'll have to buy spells like every other magician, using Karma.
You will find that magicians typically have ways of spending every last karma point they can get their grubby lil' hands on... and about three times more, too, if they could get 'em.
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Aye, those spells, ally spirits, initiations, bound watchers, permanent wards, foci, and metamagic skills do take up a lot of karma...
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I'm going to try and get a force 2 sustaining focus first thing, so I can have armor on pretty much all the time. (Ruskiface, although a great GM, does have a tendency to be a little harder on mages.) So I'll pick up that, and then later when I have more money and time, I'll pick up some power focuses... since I'm the first real character to play a mage (outside of the adpet infestation), it should be good to play.
How does focus addiction work? How else can you lose magic?
-kv
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Focus Addiction is a form of magic loss, which is really just a game mechanic to screw over munchkins who use truckloads of foci. You can have a number of foci active equal to twice your magic attribute. If you activate another focus over that, you risk magic loss. Divide the total amount of force for all active foci by two. That number is the target number for a Magic test. If that test fails, the character must check for magic loss.
To check for magic loss, roll 2d6, if the total of that roll is less than or equal to the character's Magic attribute, they lose a point of magic. When a character loses magic in this manner they must accept a geas or they can never recover that Magic point and can never initiate again, ever.
Magic loss is caused by several things: Deadly physical damage, disruption in astral combat (physical or stun damage), improper medical treatment (not applying the +2 target modifier for doctoring and first-aid), drug abuse (roll Magic vs. the drug's rating, usually, success means no Magic Loss check is made) losing a supremacy duel/being utterly defeated in a banishing contest, and of course, permanent essence loss, including but not limited to vampiric drain and cyberware. Drug addiction including smoking and drinking can affect magical ability too. If a character stays addicted to a substance they risk attribute loss and essence loss, which leads to magic loss.
Again, magic loss must be offset with a geas, there is no other way besides the path of the Burn-out. Unless you buy into a pact with a nasty Shadow spirit named Gaf who is said to be able to restore a burn-out.
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Retread seems to have it covered, except it's not number of foci, but total force of said foci.
Also please not that the plural of focus is foci.
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Woops, my bad, I meant force :P
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if you can take the adpet power living focus
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Pardon?
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in the nsrg there is a physical adept power called living focus that lets the adept sustain a spell cast on him with out contrationg on maintaining it or pentlyys it acts just like a substaining focus
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Yes, this is true, but I'd much rather just have a sustaining focus. One could postulate that any spell could be "learned" as an adept power, you'd just have to make rules up for it.
If I wanted to breathe fire as an adept ability, you could do it. Or invisibility, or armor, whatever.
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Okay... is there a mage equivalent of a Watcher Spirit?
-kv
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Watcher spirits are the same for both shamen and mages.
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and Idolic priests, and Wujen, and Houngans, and followers of the Wheel, and Koradji, and Shinto Miko, and Witches, and Monks... need I go on?
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Are there any benefits for choosing a tradition other than Hermetic or Shaman?
-kv
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The short and sweet answer is 'no'.
The longer and more precise answer is ...well, maybe.
Mostly it's a question of which kind of spirits you summon.
Wu-Jen are a sort of animistic shaman/hermetic cross. Kinda nice, but nothing really exceptional. My initial thought was that it was the choice for a player who couldn't decide wether to play a hermetic or a shaman. It's not a precise description, but it will do, unless you have some specific reason to go for chinese flavoured magic.
Idolic Priests are basically a kind of shamans, but with Idolic Totems instead of animalistic.
A follower of Creator or Trickter, instead of Sun or Coyote.
Psionics are just magicians with their own kind of spirit (only one option), but they seem rather kind of misguided, really.
Houngans summon Loa spirits, which cannot materialize, but can instead posses their Houngans (or Mambos), as well as prepared worshippers (Voudoun is more of a religion than any of the others, really). This grants certain benefits to the possessed person certain advantages, but is not entirely controllable.
And that's basically yhe whole point, now innit.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each tradition.
Hermetics need expensive libraries and have complex summonings, but can have a whole entourage of Elemental hangers-on at any one time, with just a little preparation.
They can choose to take the Drain from summoning at a point of time when it's practical for them, and they are fairly certain they're safe.
Shamans by comparison need only cheap lodges, have totemic modifiers, and on-site summonings, but can only summon the kind of spirit appropriate for the one place they are in, and have to take the Drain in-situ, where it'll count against the amount of spells s-/he can reliably cast etc.
And it's the same with each of the other traditions, there are advantages and disadvantages, and where certain disadvantages will be practically void in some campaigns, they might be crippeling in others. Textbook example: The long summonings used by Hermetics. If it's assumed that there's a fai bit of downtime between between each run and they are nice and short, it's not a problem that the Mage spends a few days summoning a few more elementals, or binding those he already has for a few more favours.
If it's high paced, in-your-face action with no breaks and long stories with no downtime, and you just can't expect to sit still for 12 hours without getting your door kicked down, then hermetics can pretty much wave their spirits bye-bye.
Was this any help?
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Wujen summon Elemental Spirits, which are like elemental nature spirits. They are summoned as a result of a natural element with no complex ritual and no cost but cannot leave their domain, their domain being anywhere within sight of their "birth element" or forcex10 meters beyond. So, if you're inside a roaring house-fire (or in direct view of one), you can summon a salamander. Even a hot summer day, with heat rising from the sunny ground can you call a salamander. Anywhere in view of natural earth can you call a Gnome. A stiff natural breeze, allows you to call a Sylphid and natural water or ice, you can call an Undine. Near plants or trees, you can summon Manitous.
These spirits powers are like a combination of elemental and nature spirit, with domain based powers and elemental projection powers. A salamander for example, can engulf in flame, do extra damage when engaged in melee combat, shoot flames like a fire elemental but can also Guard from accidents within it's environment (ie, protect against fire). Salamanders also have the invaluable ability of Magical Guard, which allows them to give spell defense to a number of people or objects equal to its force, including other spirit powers. They can also telekinetically move objects.
Basic Spirits of the Elements can only be summoned on a one-for-one basis. So you cannot have two summoned at once, otherwise the other disappears as you are considered to have left it's domain. However, greater-form spirits behave more like elementals insofar as they can leave their domain, meaning you can summon a number of them equal to your charisma and have them "on-call" Greater forms also get the marvelously scary STORM power and the cleansing ability, perfect for getting rid of that nasty background count that's hampering your spells or aiding your enemies.
Here's an example: Jennifer Wu, the Wujen is in a corporate office with some chummers,. The drek hits the fan and goons are on their way so the wujen needs some help. There's not a lot of natural stuff inside this facility, but she has some options. She can call in the decker to crank up the air-ventilation so she can summon a Sylph, use a potted ficus in the corner to summon a manitou, or use the dirt inside the pot to summon a gnome. She can light a fire inside a wastebasket and summon a salamander or she can ask the troll to knock over the water-cooler and summon an Undine (pronounced Un-dee-nee) The GM in this case, noting the weakness of these elements, tells Jen's controller that the force of her summons are limited as the elemental force is weak here. Jenny comes up with a plan, she calls in the decker and has him turn on the emergency sprinkler system, the GM says that eases the limits so she summons a force 5 Undine, saving against drain, she summons it again in Greater form. The goons don't even know what hit them as the driving sprinkler system and raging storm power of the spirit nearly kill half the guards and the rest are weakened and retreat. Ms. Wu, nearly drained gets the frag outta there before the storm hits, saving them from it's wrath. The spirit catches up with her later, although a little worse for wear.
This is a hypothetical situation, however, as Wujen aren't technically allowed to summon without a strong, completely natural element. However, this would make them nearly useless as summoners in most areas of shadowrunner expertise, so I've loosened the rules to accomodate the player by requiring the presence of the element but have the spirit arrive in a weakened fashion.
[Edit] Also, Houngans can make zombies for Loa to reside in, as well.
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Okay, how do favors work with elementals? (or services with spirits)
I mean, does an elemental have (Force) number of favors, or is it just one favor no matter what force?
How would you bind more favors to an elemental? Is the same thing possible with services for a spirit?
-kv
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I belive you can by more favors by giveing it karma
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OK, item number one: Retread, you may rule like that, but the was I read it, most of you summoning examples are broken. The water in the water cooler (or the sprinklers), as well as the earth of the potted plant are all examples of elements that are not natural enough to summon the spirits of the Wu-Jen.
Remember how you can 'kill' earth, to make it irrelevant as far as astral bodies go?
If I recall correctly, the same goes for Elemental Spirits. The dirt in the pot has been removed from the Earth (metaphysical concept), and indeed been isolated via plastic. The same goes for the water in the watercooler.
The water from the sprinkler system would, perhaps, be open for debate, but I'd probably still argue not to.
Notice your own statements? Anywhere in view of natural earth can you call a Gnome. A stiff natural breeze, allows you to call a Sylphid and natural water or ice, you can call an Undine
It could easily be argued that in your example, there is not natural earth, not natural breeze (no matter how cranked up the Air Conditioning) and no natural water.
Now, the bit I actually wanted to reply to:
When you summon a spirit, that spirirt 'owes' you a number of favours equal to the number of successes on your summoning roll.
Elementals may be 're-summoned' for a greater number of favours.
EDIT: as for the bit about giving it karma, that's mostly for when you bargain with Free Spirits.
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So I summon a force 4 fire elemental, and manage three successes- and it owes me three favors? THat makes sense. And then, if i have time later, I can re-summon the same elemental, and get more successes, and therefore more favors?
-kv
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I already noted in the example how I bent the rules. That's why I proclaimed that those elements weren't terribly powerful. The implication is that a Wujen would be utterly useless in most Shadowrunning situations as they cannot summon a darn thing inside anything man-made. The ideal being a game balance issue where even the kookiest of shamen can summon at least a hearth spirit while a Wujen is left out to dry. The implication of natural and unnatural are silly in my opinion because dirt is dirt and it's being used to grow something in it. By that respect, you shouldn't be able to summon a Manitou from the ficus because it was grown by man, and yet, somehow that ficus still lives off the dirt, and the water it is given, and the carbon dioxide that it breathes, and would still burn in a fire. An element is an element. I'd never expect the player to be able to summon spirit of the elements from concrete, or a nuclear reactor, or a septic tank or a mud puddle. But to throw out the Wujen's ability completely seems unfair compared to the power of other conjurers. It would make an Aspected Conjuror Wujen entirely useless in most situations, which implies that FASA/FanPro didn't really think about that when they designed the rules for them. Hence, the limits on force or even a penalty for summoning them.
A pipeline full of water isn' natural? Obviously not. How about a barrel fire made of burning garbage? Not a natural fire? What about a planter filled with dirt? Not natural earth, obviously. What about the ducted air system for life support in an underwater arcology? Not a natural air current. Hydroponic crops obviously aren't natural, so they couldn't summon manitous. However, all these things have in common is that they are connected to life, regardless of their direct connection to the Earth or the ecosystem. Without that dirt, the plant would die. Without that artificial air current, people and plants would die. Without all of these elements, that atmosphere would be incredibly toxic and harmful to the Astral plane. Without these elements there is death, so conversely, these elements, however artificial, are alive and as such, have a spirit, even if that spirit is dull and boring. At least, that's how I see it.
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I can see your argument Retread, and have yet to decide wether I agree with it or not. I was merely pointing out that it was not strictly according to the rules as writte, making your example perhaps less than perfect for the specific discussion.
So I summon a force 4 fire elemental, and manage three successes- and it owes me three favors? THat makes sense. And then, if i have time later, I can re-summon the same elemental, and get more successes, and therefore more favors?
Time and summoning materials, but yeah, that's the point.
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The rub in the current rules regards a controlling contest. See, there's a loophole, if one mage attempts to control another mage's elemental they don't need to resummon the elemental with a new ritual, they can just overcome the other mage's controlling test and get the net successes in favors. See the catch here? Two players can intentionally flub their controlling tests, by getting drunk or something to raise their target number so the other one gets more net successes and get an infinite number of favors. To overcome this, the GM is responsible for saying that the elemental can not owe more favors than with which it originally started.
On the subject of Spirits of the Elements, I prefer to think of them as guardians of the environment and as such, the conglomeration of all 5 types creates the domain for a nature spirit to reside. This explains the vehement hatred that SoEs have for toxic spirits. By this respect, the elements that reside inside a spirit of man's domain contribute to the growth and defense of that domain. I know that if I worked in an office with no ventilation, water, atmosphere, or heat I'd probably be miserable and drive the domain into toxicity, something those spirits are supposed to prevent. You see the relationship here? Wuxing is the art of manipulating the smaller parts of the greater domain, while shamanism looks at the whole picture and asks the domain help them on the whole.
The relationship is inverse with nature spirits with regards to toxic spirits. Nature spirits regard toxics with fear, because they are by nature the whole of the domain, the brain, while SoE are like anti-bodies and systemic functions that spread across all domains to defend against the toxics, like anti-bodies and immune response. You'd avoid a rotting pile of disease on just cause because you look at it logically, however, your anti-bodies would fight that disease no matter what. However, if a domain becomes toxic, than any SoEs as part of that domain are by their nature, toxic as well. A poisoned lake, a burning oil slick, the human incinerators at one of the Native American "rehabilitation camps" or Nazi Auschwitz, a clear cut forest, a strip mine. Heck, elements used in human destruction and torture are toxic as well. The coal pit for a branding iron, a tree used for a lynching, a water torture device, the soil around a person buried alive, a wind-tunnel used to rend flesh, etc. All these domains are toxic, and as such, so are their anti-bodies, their Spirits of the Elements.
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How does blood magic work? Does the mage not experience any drain at all? Does he have rituals to offset it beforehand?
I've heard that the mage has to kill people- but does he set them aside as a sacrifice, and then kill them with his drain, or does he kill them, and use thier blood to offset the drain... or what?
This is very confusing, and I would like to understand it so I can have a bloodmage villian.
-kv
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Right, the short version (I'll post some detail later, when I'm closer to my MitS), is that BloodMagic is all about Ritual Metamagic (yes, that means you have to be an Adept).
This particular trick is strictly verboten for all PC magicians, which you should probably seriously consider enforcing, unless you want some really messed up puppies for PCs.
The main element of Sacrifice metamagic is the ability to use blood (your own, or that of others) to decrease drain. You still have to check for drain, but at much lower target numbers.
Detail can be provided later, or you can look up Sacrifice Metamagic in MitS, under Magical Threats.
Blood Magicians (regardless of tradition) can also summon Blood Spirits, which are nasty. Very Nasty.
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How are blood spirits nasty? What makes them so nasty?
Thing is- I'm sending runners (mage included) down to San Diego, and they're going to have to tangle with some Jaguar guards and such on thier way in and out.
I would really like to know how this works, so I can throw some spirits and magic at these runners.
-kv
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Blood Magic requires the Sacrificing Metamagic, a secret and ill-reputed technique that while not inherently evil, is dangerous in its effects on the Astral plane. If one were to liken mana to life, and vice versa, blood magic would be exchanging lifeforce directly for magical power. The lifeforce, being a more conducive form to human grasp, is easier to manipulate and is used as a substitute for the raw mana taken from the astral plane. Blood magic makes spikes in the background count, as the "exhaust" from the spell returns to the astral plane as converted mana. This phenomenon is mentioned in Canon and one of the grandest uses of Blood Magic, the Great Ghost Dance, was responsible for a mana spike that would bring "the Enemy" into our world.
Blood magic in Shadowrun has two forms. Blood sorcery, and blood summoning. Blood Sorcery is when the magician uses life from a "donor" to reduce the effective force of the spell. For every box of damage that the magician uses from the donor, they reduce the Force rating used for the drain of that spell. This force reduction does not affect the actual spell result, just its drain. So, a spell cast at force 12, by a mage that inflicts 6 boxes of damage from the donor (including themself as the donor, if desired) can reduce the effective force for drain by 6 to 6. Normally, this kind of force spell would do physical damage, however, with the reduced force, it is now stun damage. The reduction is further increased if the target is killed and the drain force is reduced by the targets essence. To use a donor, the magician must harm a person whom is incapable of resisting, the most common way being blood letting, however this is not a requirement, as only harm must be done. Some blood magicians have been known to exhibit the ability to drain lifeforce directly without ritual blood-letting. These people often use the "killing hands" adept power to do so. However, the damage done must be done directly and in close proximity. So no guns or indirect projectiles. Blood Sorcery may be done with any other metamagic, be it ritually or quickened or even anchored.
Blood summoning is also very nasty. To blood summon, a person must be ritually sacrificed for the purpose of summoning that spirit. The force of the spirit summoned is based on the creature sacrificed. Small animals usually only summon force 1 spirits, while larger animals are 2-3. Awakened critters add +1 to the force, so a unicorn would be 4 force. Mundane sentients use their essence rating. Magic users use their magic rating to determine the force. So a Magic 10 mage being sacrificed to summon a Blood spirit would be very, very nasty indeed. Blood spirits are summoned in ritual, taking force hours to summon. Once that is complete, a conjuring test is rolled as per an elemental, against the force with a drain as per a normal spirit. Each success gives one service, so 3 successes = 3 services. Greater form blood spirits may only be summoned if the sacrificed is a powerful awakened critter (a dragon) or an initiate. Use invoking as normal. The spirit's form is usually as a bloody mist cloud, like a blood elemental if you will, or occasionally in other forms. Some powerful spirits are known to take the form of the sacrificed, however twisted and gruesome.
The spirit must stay within force x 100 meters of sentient beings cannot leave this range. Blood spirits lose 1 point of essence per day, and a such, must use the essence drain power to replenish themselves. Greater form blood spirits have the Engulf power, allowing them to drown their target in blood, treat that as a water engulf. Blood spirits can go free, and in doing so, only lose 1 point of essence per week, instead of per day.
There are other more obscure forms of blood magic. Some speculate that the nature of cyberware itself is a form of blood magic. A ritual known as a blood oath, can be sworn that will bond the parties involved in a contract that if broken, releases a curse upon those who break the contract. This can be likened to a materially linked anchored ritual spell. If the condition of the quickened spell is broken, the anchored spell is released through the material link to the target. Since blood is spent in this manner, the box of physical damage used in this ritual does not heal which keeps the spell anchored until the Oath is fufilled.
Ancient forms of blood magic included magical items that activated spells and effects through the use of the owner's own blood. These magics have never been discovered in the scope of the Shadowrun campaign, however.
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Retread: You're mixing Earthdawn and Shadowrun again.
Please atleast tell people when you do that.
Also, that looks like the 2nd edition description of bloodmagic.
It's still basically correct, except for afew details here and there.
A) When you kill a target, you gain not their Essence, but only half-Essence (rounded down).
B) Bloodletting is a requirement. If you just use the sacrifice geas, it is satisfied with bare hands or a personal weapon (no spells or ranged weapons), but to use Blood Magic to resist drain, a physical wound must be inflicted, symbolism requiring a melee weapon (traditionally a nife or dagger, but a dikoted katana will do just dandy).
The initiate may make a melee combat skill check against the restrained target as party of the spell casting action. T# is 2, because of the restraints. This means you can't always depend on how much you get, though the aforementioned dikoted katana does have promise. Also note that the magic only cares about boxes of damage, so there are perfectly sound reasons fot spending the blood of that petite temp-sec, instead of the big bad orc 'runner that your guards just captured. Especially since she's likely to have more Essence left.
C) This method for reducing drain can be used for any Magical skill test.
Yes, including summoning. So yes, you can take the head of that petite little uncybered temp-sec (10 boxes + 3 for half-Essence) and Summon a Force 13 spirit, at no drain.
You still have to roll a 13 or better on the summoning roll to get ay favours though.
D) While drain reduction requires a sentient victem, summoning a blood spirit deos not.
It just limits the Force of the spirit:
Small Animal (small dog or rat) 1
Medium animal (real dog, smallish 'big cat') 2
Large Animal (horse, tiger) 3
Mundane Setient Essence
Awakened Sentient Magic
(Awakened Animals are good for a +1)
If you want to summon a Great Form blood spirit, it requires the sacrifice of an initiate, or equivalent Sentient monster (like a dragon).
Blood Spirits have the powers of Engulf, Essence Drain, Fear, Guard, Materialization and Noxious Breath, but suffer from Essence (actually Force) Loss, at a rate of 1 per day.
(Yes, I know Retread got most of this right, but it's not good to start out saying that you must sacrifice a person, and then specify that you can use animals as well.)
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Very cool- so, how can I work blood magic into a story? When would runners come across it (My runners are doing the 2055 timeline, so I can teach them all of the history of Shadowrun)
-kv
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Eh, you said something about a run into Aztlan, that seems like the perfect time to educate them on the use of blood magic...
Notably, the Blood Oath option was mentioned in Canon as what the Great Dragon Lung used to assure the loyalty of his subordinates in the Triads.
I also did mention Earthdawn, but I noted that those forms of Blood Magic were ancient secrets lost forever ago and have not since emerged in the Shadowrun Campaign. I didn't specifically mention the name Earthdawn, but that doesn't mean I meant to say you should use that form of blood magic, or even describe rules for how that magic is used.
Kid, Blood Magic is dangerous, because that power WILL go to a player's head. Trust me, I gave a player the Sacrifice geas and he turned into a murderer like that.
Additionally, I don't see why you must draw blood, you must simply harm the victim in some fashion. The loss of lifeforce is what drives the magic, not the blood. The same as how a wendigo must eat in a cannibalistic feast to feed off of essence. The act is just an emotional bond between the donor and the magician. You could use a laser scalpel, or simply beat your target into unconciousness with a baseball bat and continue to do so to fuel the magic, if you really wanted. Which implies that using the Killing Hands technique without using Distance Strike would achieve the same result as strangling an unconcious person to death or near death.
This brings up an interesting question, can an adept kill themselves with Killing Hands?
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Additionally, I don't see why you must draw blood, you must simply harm the victim in some fashion.
The melee weapon (when used against drain) is an explicit requirement according to MitS.
Furthermore, blood's sort of the point of the whole thng, neh?
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Yes and no, if you ask an old great dragon what they think about blood magic, what will they say?
"I think Death Magic is abhorrent, however, Life Magic has it's uses."
Blood Magic is the Magic of Life and Death, the use of life for the purpose of magic. Blood spirits are pure evil because they are Death Magic given form, they require death in order to exist. Sacrifice for the purpose of spell-casting, especially on the part of the caster to enact a greater good (such as the rituals used to regrow the rainforest in Amazonia) is called Life Magic. The use of Life as the direct force of mana (because our auras are made of mana, mind you) needs only the requirement of taking life from the "donor." The act of bloodshed is not necessarily a requirement only direct contact with lifeforce involved.
To posit a question to you ROOTless, if a blood mage were to engage an astral form of a magician, could that blood mage kill the magician in astral combat and use that magician's lifeforce to cast a spell, summon a spirit, et al? After all, the wounds in astral space manifest upon the body of the summoner, would it matter if those wounds were burns, cuts, or broken bones? The weapon that the blood mage would use would be merely an extension of his unconciousness and could be a katana, a giant hammer, even her astral form's venomous teeth.
Are my bare hands not my closest available melee weapon? What rules due bare hands use? Melee combat rules.
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To posit a question to you ROOTless, if a blood mage were to engage an astral form of a magician, could that blood mage kill the magician in astral combat and use that magician's lifeforce to cast a spell, summon a spirit, et al? After all, the wounds in astral space manifest upon the body of the summoner, would it matter if those wounds were burns, cuts, or broken bones? The weapon that the blood mage would use would be merely an extension of his unconciousness and could be a katana, a giant hammer, even her astral form's venomous teeth.
Are my bare hands not my closest available melee weapon? What rules do bare hands use? Melee combat rules.
Perhaps surprisingly, no, bare hads are usually not considered melee weapons. It's called unarmed combat, even though it uses melee combat rules. (A funny contradiction of terms, since the word melee comes from a root meaning 'confusion' or something very similar.)
Though ofcourse yes, your point of view could be argued, it is not a garanteed win.
And as for your question, I agree that this particular situation is not covered. Mind you, it is made explicit that the victim must be defenceless (yes, I now the wording mentions restraints, but refuse to consider a magician able to astrally project and carry on the fight in the astral 'restrained', even if he's tied up like an x-mas hog.) Ofcourse, should someone find a nice way to restrain an astral form, that's be a very interesting sight.
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It's called, Mana-Bind, a spell. Additionally, what if the subject were voluntary? Say a mundane using the free-spirit power of Astral Gateway? How about the magician himself? Can someone commit suicide in Astral space? Seems like it would be easy enough.
Look at the Contest-of-Wills ability to fight spirits. Your weapon has little effect on attacking the spirit. Simply coming in contact with the spirit's aura is enough for a willpower connection. The same thing Sacrificing metamagic.
If blood magic were really about the blood, then you'd see the azzies going and raiding the Red Cross or cloning blood cells in a lab to create enough to use in the rituals. The blood is not the catalyst, the life is, and in taking the life, you create the emotional connection to use that life to channel mana. It doesn't matter if you stab the subject with a knife, sever their head with a monowire, bash their skull in with a rock, or simply throttle them with your bare hands, their death is what fuels the magic not the blood.
Blood Magic is a misnomer derived from the nature of the first Sixth World view of Sacrificing metamagic, which is the Aztlan use. It wasn't until later that it was discovered that the first actual use of Sacrificing metamagic was during the Great Ghost Dance. The effect was probably not as the Aztecs would have it, but perhaps through extreme asceticism, like starvation or dehydration in a sweat lodge (the ritual was days long, after all), ritual burning, but never bloodletting. Many died in the process of the Great Ghost Dance, yet not all of them died of blood-loss. Once again, the only reason it is called Blood Magic, is because the Aztec rituals first witnessed by the majority of the Sixth world were gruesome and bloody.
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So... how would I go about introducing blood magic? Should I have a blood-magic specific plot? I'm lucky about magic users, in that I have two, one aspected spellcaster, and another gator shaman, neither of which (I hope) is going to want to learn sacrificing metamagic. After this run against Aztlan, neither of them would be able to, even if they wanted!
-kv
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Well, they might run into them during that shadowrun, however, if they don't then they might never. Sacrificing metamagic is pretty rare. If you REALLY want to you can use Ordo Maximus as a springboard for that. Ordo Maximus is an initiatory group of Vampires and Nosferatu primarily stationed in New Orleans. Some of them are known to dabble in that form of magic. Of course, I doubt your PCs are ready for Vampiric Blood Mages.
You could have the PCs get caught during their Aztlan run or even better, have the character's offered their way into and out of Aztlan by the Jesuit brotherhood, however their mission is to capture/assassinate a Blood Shaman or they're on their own.
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Well, I'm thinking that an interesting endgame (the end of the run) would involve the runners making it back to CalFree, more or less intact. The Johnson who hired them paid them beforehand, and promised another job afterwards.
So they show up at the bar where they met Mr. Johnson, and when they get there, there's a group of Leopard guards (making it two teams of leopard guards that they're going to have to tangle with) and a blood mage, who is going to have 2 force 3 blood spirits guarding him, and takes no drain, making him a pretty formidible mage.
Okay, that being said, what are the stats for a blood spirit? Same as other spirits?
Anything I should add or change to make them nastier?
-kv
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The stats should be listed in MitS.
I believe it's B: F+1 Q: (F+2)x3 S: F-2, C W I: F E: F/A R: F+1. Init: F+1 +10 +1d6 or (20+1d6 if astral) Attacks are STR (M). Essence Drain, Fear, Guard, Materialization, Noxious Breath. Weaknesses are Essence Loss.
The blood mage really shouldn't have zero drain. He should probably use any dying leopard guards that the runners kill as "ammo" for some high force spells.
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So if a leopard guard gets injured, the mage will 'sacrifice' him to cast a big spell?
That should work okay.
How does the essence drain ability work?
-kv
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Download the critters sourcebook, I believe they might still have it for free on the shadowrunrpg.com website.
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/downloads/fanpro_sr_critters.pdf (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/downloads/fanpro_sr_critters.pdf)
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When a mage casts on the astral plane, does the mage resist the physical damage with thier willpower or body?
-kv
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The mage has no Body in Astral Space. Their Willpower is their body, also, all sorcery Drain is resisted with Willpower.
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So, even when overcasting, the damage is resisted with willpower?
-kv
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Always.
Physical drain is resisted with willpower in the physical world as well, and as Retread mentioned, the difference makes no ense in the astral.
Also please note that in the astra:
There is no 'Body', use Willpower instead.
There is no 'Quickenss', use Intelligence instead.
There is no 'Strength', use Charisma instead.
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Yes, as a general rule:
Dwarves are better Sorcerers: +1 Willpower (for drain and spell pool)
Elves are better Conjurers: +2 Charisma (Summoning Drain + conjuring limit)
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And of course, humans, orcs, and trolls are just better targets. ;)
Gabriel
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Well, they have their other advantages. I mean, the right combination of spells can make anyone very dangerous. Ever see a troll with Armor 6 on a sustaining focus?
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Yes, the last game I played. That doesn't help, however, when the enemy mage decides to start tossing Manabolts at the troll. Remember, Armor glows. But I do see what you are saying, and you are absolutely right. Player your PC to his advantages, and try to control the disadvantages as much as possible.
Gabriel
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I recently had a player (a brand new player who knew nothing about min-maxxing shadowrun characters) choose a troll mage as his character type.
This was a MEAN troll mage. He kicked hoop and then some.
Priority A Attributes
Priority B Magic (Aspected Spell Slinger)
Priority C Race (Troll)
Priority D Skills
Priority E Resources
-kv
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TROLL MAGE UBER ALLES
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that does indeed look nasty.
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Take that guy out with a BIG sniper rifle and a BIG manabolt.
Gabriel
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Good luck with the manabolt, chummer. He's a spell slinger, so he has access to stuff like spell pool and fetishes.
Although he didn't play him long... he's playing a Face Junkie now.
-kv
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FACE JUNKIE UBER ALLES
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uhhh... what? What is an uber alles?
-kv
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FACE JUNKIE UBER ALLES
Only german Face Junkies, I should assume.
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Anyway... more magic questions.
Are there any focuses that help with banishing spirits? (or controlling spirits in general?)
-kv
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foci
Never focuses, the plural of focus is foci.
Yes, there exist a category known as spirit foci, and IIRC they add dice to all rolls magically interacting with the appropriate spirits, including for purposes of controlling or banishing.
Remember that the focus must be designed for the specific type of spirit, and that buying a focus for a type of bug spirit might ... raise questions.
Also, free spirits are unique, and require individualized foci.
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Additionaly, I would think that any focus that is created for a free spirit would require part of that spirit in the same way as a material link would for ritual casting. So a focus for summoning earth elementals might contain some rare earth or a precious stone of some sort, whereas a hearth spirit might have some material from a house or building in it. Kind of like that.
That's not canon, just how I would do things.
Gabriel
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Notably, free spirits are not considered to fall under the blanket of "spirit types." So a Fire Elemental focus will not be able to help you bind a Free Fire Elemental. However, this isn't to say that you can't make a focus for manipulating a free spirit. You can make a focus for use in binding a free spirit by designing the focus with knowledge of the free spirit's True Name. Once designed, you can make the focus at whatever rating you designed it at and once bonded will allow you to add dice for tests to banish, bind or otherwise frag with that particular spirit.
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Yeah, just be really, REALLY carefull about doing this. Free spirits can be a real pain in the hoop, and are generally NOT bound by any recognized laws. The exception to this is Aztland and Amazonia (if I remember correctly). Anyway, they can be bad news if you frag with them, and will be VERY interested in why you are looking for their true name if they get wind of you doning it.
Gabriel
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Well, considering that you only have to find out the spirit's home metaplane and get a good look at the spirit itself, there's really not much they can do in the meantime.
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Depending on Force, that quest can get really nasty.
And in some cases, just finding the signature can be a problem.
Oh, and good luck questing for the True Name of a bug.
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I don't even want to think about what that metaplane would be like. Hasn't it been theorized that the bugs are coming here because it's already too crowded in their own metaplane??
Gabriel
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Something like that. I fail to understand how a metaphysical plane gets crowded, however...
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That's exactly what I thought. But there you go.
Gabriel
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My knowledge of the Earthdawn Invae is weak, so if someone with further ED knowledge would enlighten me as to whether there is a reference to the home plane of the Invae within Earthdawn Novels or Sourcebooks, it would be appreciated.
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Wait a mintue!!!! Mr. ShadowDawn himself is saying he isn't sure of an ED reference??? Hell, Retread, I should give you a karma point for that!! ;) Seriously though, how do you get to a point where your entire plane of existance is "too full"??? Sounds a bit fragged up.
Gabriel
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You know, I never did claim to be the end-all-be-all of Earthdawn... I made a few references and conjectures and you put me in that role. Keep that in mind, Gabe ;)
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No, I confirm Retread's statements. The Bug metaplane is crowded, but don't think of it as a physicality filling a volume, but instead as an emotional need to consume (Bug's defining trait).
They aren't out of space, they are out of resources (Hosts).
And of course, Queen bugs you see here in the real world are just underlings to things you could see in that metaplane. . .
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You know, I never did claim to be the end-all-be-all of Earthdawn... I made a few references and conjectures and you put me in that role.
A FEW????? You know, if I rana search on topics involving ED words & phrases, I bet every one would start and end with you and take up more total space than the Paddin' thread, chummer. ;)
And yeah, I can see the point you and Curris are making about out of rescources. Still, I'm glad I'm not a mage. I'd hate to run into THAT on an astral quest.
Gabriel
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Hey, what are fovea?
I was reading about 'pits' in the astral in Chi-Town after the wall comes down, and I was curious, because someone mentioned that they were similar to fovea of Aztlan.
-kv
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If I recall correctly, they are sort of 'holes' in astral space. A localized area with no astral space (or possible just a very high-level manawarp).
Enough to kill (or drive mad) anyone astrally projecting inside.
But ofcourse, I may be mixing it up with something else, since I haven't touched that book in years. ;)
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So they're not like a pit where there's no astral buildup or anything?
Is there anything that sorts out background count to make things safe for spellcasters?
-kv
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It's a dead zone where there is little or no mana. The FAB III bacteria that consumes mana that was used against the bug spirits became attached to the areas of background count caused by the blast. Additionally, the FAB III was also "eating" the ghosts created at the Shattergraves.
The Fovoae in Aztlan are a result of channeling mana through a network of Teocalli altars with blood magic. The differential is created when mana is sucked from one place and used elsewhere. The places where the network was imperfect and intersected were hit with the worst of the draining effect, in effect creating a "dead zone" or "hole" in the astral where little or no mana exists. The purpose of moving this mana around was to increase the size of the mana spike that was acting like a bridge to the metaplane of "the Enemy." A large enough series of blood rituals combined with this networked mana would allow for an area with a high enough mana level to create a physical rift to the plane of the Horoi.
To answer your other question Kid, there is an Filtering metamagic that eseentially creates a filter to clean out nasty bits of pollution inside background count. This metamagic is a crude form of Spell Matrix.
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So... filtering Metamagic gets rid of background count?
Just where the mage uses it? Just where the mage is?
-kv
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No, Filtering lets you cast cleaner magic within a BC area. Cleansing cleans that BC. Two seperate meta-magics that have similar effects to the caster. And if you want to know more about Fovae, check out the Aztlan Sourcebook.
Gabriel
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The Blood Mage Gestalt is directly responsible for the Fovoae in Aztlan. They use a blood magic technique whereby they combine their blood together with a pumping machine and use ritual metamagic to link the teocalli (a kind of giant foci) to the master Teocalli in Tenochtitlan, where another ritual will take place to summon the tzitzimine into this world.
The strange community blood ritual is interesting indeed. All members of this Gestalt must be of the same blood-type or they would suffer a horrible allergic reaction. When combined in the ritual, the gestalt becomes one astral being with mental attributes equal to the average of all members combined. However, this abomination has an initiate grade equal to the combined grade of all members currently sharing their blood. This combining is considered one astral being that can project and move about in astral form or perform any other task from sorcery to summoning. This gestalt uses many human sacrifices, especially initiates, to sacrifice for very potent high-drain magic. The use of this magic causes a mana-spike. This mana-spike will allow the tzitzimine into this world. I believe the Blood Mage Gestalt was destroyed during the Year of the Comet, when Ghostwalker attacked the Tenochtitlan teocalli and pulled a massive bloody astral form from the inside of the ruined teocalli. I suspect that on that night, Ghostwalker may have saved the entire world...
Observe: Genesis states that the world was Darkness, ravenously consumed by demons. The Japanese creation myth has similar demons. The Aztec and Mayan creation myths involve dark winged demon-like creatures of sheer evil that devour the world. All of these creation myths speak of one thing: "The Enemy."
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Yes, but all "mythic" belief systems have all of the same elements to them: the Enemy, the Alpha, the Omega, specifc Gods/beings that embody human aspects. So the question becomes, are these similarities based on a shared history, or are they all projections of humanity's collective need to embody ideals in order to deal with them?
And as for the Teocali that Ghostwalker took out, as I recall, that was in Denver. And since that it's the tmain Teocali in Tenochtitlan (sp?) I doubt that would have destroyed this cabal you're talking about. I can't remember off hand if he WENT to Aztlan to kick hoop, but I know the incident you are refering to was in Denver. I can't see Ghostwalker making a direct attack into Aztlan at all since that is Halpa's territory. At least I beleive it is Hualpa's territory.
Gabriel
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Yeah, is there much record of Dragon's holdings? I know Lowfyr holds power in the Rhine-Ruer Megaplex, Lung controls some of the Chinese Triads, and Hestaby has Northern CalFree covered. What about Hualpa (wait- isn't she in charge of Amazonia?) What about Aden? Or other dragons mentioned in Canon?
-kv
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A few others are mentioned, yes.
Mainly in Dragons of the Sixth World.
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Hualpa is Amazonia? Ok, I think that's right. But I still can't see Ghostwalker heading into the heart of Aztlan. But I'm gonna check anyway since I have now completely confused myself as to what DID happen.
Gabriel, Senile Elf
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Ok, here's the paydata.
According to Year of the Comet, Ghostwalker flew directly from the Rift in Washington DC to Denever, picking up a physical body somewhere on the way, and immediately began blasting the Aztland teocali. He engaged, and tried to physically tear apart, a giagantic spirit which was described as being red around the edges and covered in blood, but was destracted by an attack helicopter and a drone (shich he destroyed) and let the blood spirit go. The blood spirit got away.
So if that was the gestault that Ghostwalker was fighting (and I bet ou my right arm that it was) then the thing was not destroyed, but was probably torn up pretty bad. If the gestalt is a sum of all the linked indeviduals, then I'm sure that damage to the gestalt woud result in some of them actually being killed and the rest of the mass being propped up by the surviving mages. So maybe some of the important ones got geekd by the wizworm. Who can say?
If you have any more info on this, Retread, post it. You've got me really curious about this again.
Gabriel
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Well, I got that data from the Threats Sourcebook, 2nd edition. The Ghostwalker thing is a conjecture I based upon that. I imagine that Ghostwalker could sense through his body (probably buried somewhere near Denver) that a powerful ritual was taking place. I also suspect that Aztlan was so peeved about losing their territory in the FRFZ (Front-range Free Zone) not because of the actual property involved but rather the significant amount of mana they were directing to that area. Remember that Ghostwalker summoned some very powerful spirits to defend him against the Azzies that night. He probably drew upon all the power being stored near that area. Additionally, being able to draw on a mana source from further away than the rest of their teocalli was probably a boon as they were drawing enough from Aztlan to create the Fovoae in the first place. Several other places were attacked by Ghostwalker that night. In my wildest speculation, I believe the Azzies were trying to do something nasty to Ghostwalker's body. Imagine a fully formed Gestalt posessing the body of a projecting dragon... scary, neh?
I was wrong about the Teocalli being in Tenochtitlan, I must have crossed a wire or something.
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That's actually a pretty interesting theory, although I don't think the Azzies were in possesion of his body. If they had been, then he would have probably battled on the astral until he could get into the teocali, and THEN bust out and reek havoc on those nasty bastards from down south. However, I can see him being REALLY torqued aout thier activities against spirits. Since Ghostwalker has "come back" to Denver (which many people believe to be his ancient territory) he has done A LOT of conjuring in general and his activities seem to revolve quite a lot around spirits in general.
Personally, I think he has a very strong link to Dunkelzahn, and not just because he came out of the rift. That could well be incidental. What I do remember is that when he popped up, almost all of the great dragons made media anouncements either welcoming him back, or warning him not to "act too hastily". Some even aluded to him being heir to Dunkelzahn, however THAT works in dragon society.
Also, when Ghostwalker came through the rift, a ton of other spirits did too. In fact, some cobbers say that they can trace the appearance of shedim spirits back to the opening of the rift. It looks like Ghostwalker may have let in a bunch of nastiness when he ripped his way out of astral space.
The question on my mind is, why did he have to rip his way out? And why use the rift to do it? Maybe the Azzies caught him napping and were able to actually imprison his essence on the astral plane somehow. Maybe Ghostwalker was supposed to wake up a ling time ago, and the Azzies were able to supress that and use the local mana to fule the teocalis. This is all just speculation, but who can say with something like this.
But I agree that his attack on the teocali, his very first act of agression in Denver, has to be significant. I don't know how, but I do have to agree with you, Retread, that there is more there than meets the eye.
Gabriel
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Interesting theory... I am intruiged.
Does anyone know more?
-kv
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Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn are brothers, hatched from the same brood of eggs.
Aztechnology's greater goals are shrouded in mystery. However, I'm very curious as to what was in the box that Dunklezahn bequeathed to Juan Atzcapotzalco in his will...
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Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn are brothers, hatched from the same brood of eggs.
Source?
Aztechnology's greater goals are shrouded in mystery. However, I'm very curious as to what was in the box that Dunklezahn bequeathed to Juan Atzcapotzalco in his will...
Aren't we all?
However, we're now getting a tad off topic here people.
Kid, did you get what you needed, or do you have new questions?
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However, I'm very curious as to what was in the box that Dunklezahn bequeathed to Juan Atzcapotzalco in his will...
His soul.
Gabriel
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ROOTless
Read This (http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://shadowrun.fr/file_download/3&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEarthdawn%2BDragons%2Bpdf%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)
Page 60 or the entries for the Great Dragons Icewing and Mountainshadow.
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Yes, I did.
I know of both Mountainshadow and Icewing.
However.
I'd really prefer if you would label SR/ED crossings as such. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge (and I admit to having read that .pdf only twice, and only having skimmed through the Dragons of the Sixth Age), the theory that Icewing and Ghostwalker are the same is only that, an unconfirmed theory.
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Wouldn't it make more sense if Retread labeled the posts that WEREN'T SR/ED crossovers??? ;)
Gabriel
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SNARL!
Regardless, if you look at the MO of both dragons they match the MO of Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn perfectly. It also explains the similarities between Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn, most specifically the physical similariities that the Children of the Dragon confused with as the ressurrected form of Dunklezahn.
Observe, both dragons are highly involved with metahumans, as both Icewing and Mountainshadow meddled greatly with "Name-givers" just as Dunklezahn and Icewing do. Dunklezahn is a charmer, whom often manipulates people under the guise of kindness. This is an ability he had developed over 7000 years ago during the Fourth World. Also note Ghostwalker's claim to many drakes, this most likely due to the fact that he created many more drakes than any other Great Dragon.
There is honestly no doubt in my mind that Ghostwalker is Icewing and Dunklezahn is Mountainshadow. Their implicit natures lay proof to a theory which substantiates the theory over any other. Unless that is of course, you have a counter-theory..?
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Are all of the dragons in that book present in Shadowrun age?
If so, which are which?
-kv
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My apologies, I think I just realized where our communication has failed.
I have my everyday life in (or on the border of) the scientific community (Physics, Semiconductor/ material sciences). In this context, it is inconceivable that you would make a statement like
Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn are brothers, hatched from the same brood of eggs.
without providing either a motivation for your statement, or a referance to someone else providing the motivation. It's the sort of thing that costs you grades in larger projects, or problems when publishng articles. When I see a statement like that, so very bold and and definate, I know there has to be valid reasoning immediately afterwards, or a referance as to why. So if my request for a source seemed aggresive, it was not meant that way.
Second of all, I don't need to refute your theory, or provide another one.
According to how I'm used to evaluating theories, you don't actually argue for your theory, simply state a possibility and declare it to be true unless proven false. This without any significant (not sure what you'd normally call it, a direct translation of what I'd usually call it would be 'burden of evidence').
What you deposit is conjecture at best, nothing that cannot be explained away with coincidences (or, more likely, given the context, some guy who really liked the idea of a Great Dragon with this secific sort of behaviour!). I agree that there are similarities, but because they are nothing more, I refuse to give them any more credence than that, especially because it leaves me with free-er hands in case I'm ever to use something like that as a plotline. My players might well suspect what you clearly believe, but because it is not proven or a matter of record, I can easily spin a twist on it, and make it different.
I can do so too ofcourse, even if it's been printed a thousand places with font-size 48 that they indeed are the one and same, but in that case I'd prefer not to, for certain reasons having to do mostly with the detail that so very many of the people I play with (though not all) score so amazingly highly on this (http://www.msnbc.com/modules/newsweek/autism_quotient/default.asp).
But please note that
Their implicit natures lay proof to a theory which substantiates the theory over any other.
is not a valid proof, merely a point of argument, and that I need not present a counter theory to pick your theory apart, simply to point out that it is build on sand.
I will accept it as a possiblity, certainly even a strong one, assuming that the 2 worlds (Sr and ED) haven't been torn apart irrevocably with the end of FASA, but it is not the only possible solution.
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I think this points out a major difference between mathmatical (physical) theories, and political (mental) theories, because political theories (ones involving intent, possibilities, and people) often require a replacement theory.
You can argue with Marx's theories, whether or not people are inherently selfish, but political theories usually require a replacement theory.
People are inherently selfish- why?
People are not inherently selfish- why?
At least that's my take. Let's just write this all up to a difference of opinion, and get back to the thread topic at hand? Please?
-kv
(I scored an 8 on that test)
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Well, let's see here, certain dragons in that book I am unaware of, specifically. However, anyone can logically guess that Luung and Lung, are the same dragon. The same is most likely true of Alamaise and Alamais.
I could wager that Nightsky was Nachtmeister, but we all know how that turned out. I do not know much of how Nachtmeister acted or his Modus Operandi so I cannot say for sure.
Earthroot may be Celedyr. I say this because Earthroot was patron of the Dwarves of Throal. Celedyr is called "Stone-Diver" by other Dragons. This is a weak conjecture, however.
Usun does not match the physical description of Lofwyr, but Dragons do change their colors as they age. Regardless, Usun's nature of Domination or destruction of the lesser races leads me to believe this. Otherwise, Usun might also be Aden or Sirrurg.
Vasdenjas is dead. The Dragons of Earthdawn sourcebook said he had no kin, therefore he can't be Dunklezahn. Read the quote later
Vestrivian is probably dead or has been morphed into a Horror-construct by The Despoiler of the Land. If Vestrivian is still in control of his mind, he is probably the named Dragon "Sirrurg"
The rest I have no idea.
ROOTless, let's lay this to rest, here's my proof:
Page 5 of "Survival of the Fittest" Paragraph 16, Column 2:
Ghostwalker drew himself up to his full height, nearly rearing up on his hind legs, in a formal Posture of Defiance, "I do Stone-Diver," he replied, "Though I honor and respect my brother's memory, I must question this most flagrant violation of our ways, just as I must question why it has been allowed to stand. From all I have seen and heard since my return I can assume the only reason is lack of courage."
This is said in reference to Dunklezahn's (Far-Scholar) bequest of the Jewel of Memory to Lofwyr (Gold-Master) by Ghostwalker (Doll-Maker)
Mountainshadow was the eldest of all Dragons during the time of Earthdawn. Icewing was the second eldest and is also the original creator of the magical formula to create the Drakes, a magical dragon-like construct to serve dragons, hence his Dragon name, "Doll-maker" Icewing is Ghostwalker. Ghostwalker is Dunklezahn's brother. Dunklezahn is Mountainshadow.
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Now you make a convincing argument.
Good.
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Well, now that ROOTless has be apeased, how about another question, Kid_Vid???
Gabriel
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Uhh... I pretty much just asked them as I came up with them, and they've all been answered, so I don't really have anymore..
Okay, here goes;
How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
Oops, magic thread.
How much wood would an AWAKENED wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
-kv
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Essence Cord of wood per hour.
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And with this, I think I'll just have to lock and sticky this thread.