Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => SR4 (Shadowrun 4th Edition) General Discussion => Topic started by: swirler on September 13, 2006, 07:09:48 PM
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I've played Shadowrun off and on since First ed. mostly played 2nd. I have tons of books from that time, I have 3rd edition but never really got to play it. I've been wanting to get back in the game. good points and bad, how is 4? Also what can be used from older books, anything?
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Well, let's see, Swirler, I haven't had a chance to really get into 4th edition just yet, but I have been told by several of the Pub patrns that the rules-set is much more streamlined than the previous 3 versions. Of course, that was the main goal of having a new edition, so apparently FP actually managed it. The timeline has also been shifted ahead by 7 years, so alot of the recent (read last 20 yers of game-time) is going to be more or less ot the window for suplimental material. Normal history, that is from 1980 - 2050 is still consistant. Of course they didn't toss out all of the history generated by the novels or modules, but you will have to really check sources for things like current corporation drek and just bout everything having to do with the matrix now that it's wireless.
Unfortunately, that's really all I know about 4th edition. I've been between runner groups in RL for about 2 years now, so bummer for me. Now if you have a 3rd edition question, I'm your elf. Well, me and Retread and ROOTless. More Retread and ROOTless, actually. In fact, you may just want to IM them. ;)
Gabriel
PS - Welcome to the Pub, chummer.
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I for one do not plan to make the move to the 4th edition.
The list of changes I've seen described makes it look like a storyteller clone.
Now don't get me wrong, I like storyteller just fine, but I like the shadowrun system just fine too, and I don't like systems getting dumbed down (which happened to AD&D when it became D&D3, and which appears to've happened in SR4).
Mind you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with SR4, just that I can't be bothered to spend money on what appears to be a devolution of a functional system at the moment.
Perhaps now is the time for someone who actually plays (or atleast bothered to read) the fourth edition to step forth and comment?
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hmm
In a way I like the idea of streamlining, but I also fear things being stripped down and soulless. As I mentioned, Ive never actually gotten to play 3rd, most of my time was 1st and 2nd.
The thing that bothered me was combat could really bog down and melee was all but useless, the way I remember it in the first two. How does it compare in 3rd or 4th?
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Well, combat can still bog down a bit, but I've always felt that since it is so deadly, then once you get a light or medium wound, then the rest goes down hill pretty quickly. As for melle combat, yeah, it still sucks troll dong. I started using it a lot more in my recent games, and found that it was very poorly thought out. The idea of being able to do damage to someone by defending yourself always sat really badly with me. To put it anohter way, and this is from a gamer who liked super-hero games, "This sucks! So you're telling me that if the Flash ran up to someone and hit them 20 times in a second, they could do damage to HIM every time? So basicly you can attack someone and kill yourself before he even gets to attack you back??"
Personally, I have to agree with the player on that one. However, if you get yourself a copy of the Cannon Companion, they have a bunch of fighting styles in there that compliment the normal melee fighting rather well. You still have the problems, but now you have OPTIONS. ;)
Gabriel
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well I decided to just go ahead and get the book and then go thriough it and see what I think. Nothing else I'll want it for any changes in background or additions.
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Oh yeah, take the easy way out. ;)
Gabriel
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Gabe.
If you were The Flash, you'd have a quickness of 30 and a combat pool to match; could smoke them on the first or second complex action.
Then there's reaction. If the player failed the surprise roll ie. rolled less successes than the Flash's reaction, they couldn't counterattack at all.
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Yeah, my house rules are that you can't return damage on melee attacks- you have to wait for your turn to punch, even if you totally and completely soak everything they throw at you.
-kv
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Gabe.
If you were The Flash, you'd have a quickness of 30 and a combat pool to match; could smoke them on the first or second complex action.
Then there's reaction. If the player failed the surprise roll ie. rolled less successes than the Flash's reaction, they couldn't counterattack at all.
You could ONLY smoke them if you got surprise. You know the rules as well as I do, if you hit someone you roll both Unarmed Combat (or equivalent) against a TN of 4 (pluss modifications) and whoever gets the most successes deals damage. If the flash attacked 30 people in 30 second, he leaves himself open to 60 (2 punches per initiative pass) counter attacks. That rule sucks troll schlong.
Gabriel
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Hence my house rule.
We also increased the threshold to do damage to 5 for most cases, although we have used the 'opposed test' that was so popular in 2nd edition.
Personally, I like to have the runners roll at a specific target number, and then roll the unarmed combat skill plus the body of the person, to take the hit. This gives the defender the edge in combats, rather than the agressor. Maybe it's just been my experience, but it's much harder to hurt someone with your hands than it is to avoid getting hurt.
-kv
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Well, if you wanna be technical, you could use vehicle rules. Since The Flash moves at such a high speed the target number to hit him would be so high. So say the Flash had 30 quickness. That means that he can "Run" 4x30 meters per combat turn. (remarkably low, for The Flash) Since the target(s) is assumed to be still. The target number is increased by +1 for every 30m/Combat Turn. The person countering the Flash would probably suffer an additional +4 or more penalty to his target number to hit because he's simply moving too fast. If he's moving so fast that he can't be seen then there's an additional +8 to hit him for a blind attack modifier.
The assumption is that melee is a contest and it should be rolled that way. It's not a slug fest where one attack follows another. Someone can throw a punch and a better martial artist can lock that arm and break their shoulder. Cases where characters are superhuman are reflected in their stats. Someone with super-human reflexes is still limited by how fast their muscles can actually move and work. Wired reflexes make it so your brain works your muscles faster, but it doesn't actually allow your arms to move faster or your legs to run farther. A person with quickness 4 can run 16 meters in a combat turn, regardless of how many complex actions they take. A person with a higher quickness has more combat pool, a person with higher Reaction and initiative can pull a trigger faster and never be surprised, big difference.
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book came today
we'll see how it reads
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That is a one-eyed smoking portait of pork awesomeness. (your icon)
Let us know what you figure out, okay?
-kv
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That is a one-eyed smoking portait of pork awesomeness. (your icon)
Let us know what you figure out, okay?
-kv
thanks
its the store/password giver character from an old sega master system game "Wonderboy 3: the Dragons Trap"
yeah so far Im liking most of what I'm seeing in the game, though I miss Decks and deckers
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Well, combat can still bog down a bit, but I've always felt that since it is so deadly, then once you get a light or medium wound, then the rest goes down hill pretty quickly. As for melle combat, yeah, it still sucks troll dong. I started using it a lot more in my recent games, and found that it was very poorly thought out. The idea of being able to do damage to someone by defending yourself always sat really badly with me. To put it anohter way, and this is from a gamer who liked super-hero games, "This sucks! So you're telling me that if the Flash ran up to someone and hit them 20 times in a second, they could do damage to HIM every time? So basicly you can attack someone and kill yourself before he even gets to attack you back??"
Personally, I have to agree with the player on that one. However, if you get yourself a copy of the Cannon Companion, they have a bunch of fighting styles in there that compliment the normal melee fighting rather well. You still have the problems, but now you have OPTIONS. ;)
Gabriel
gabe avent you ever heard of akido as I understand it it it has no offseive moves at all its all defensive but you can serisesly frag someone up with it using thier own kenitic engery against them
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Aikido is actually usually fairly nice about things, but then, it's the 'nice' version of Aikijutsu, which does just about that.
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SR4 has ben out for a while now.
Have anyone played it? Is it any good?
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My brother (Ruski) really wants to play it, but I've been dragging my feet on it. I don't especially like the WoD-ish new ruleset... I do believe him that the rules have been streamlined, but I've just barely gotten my family (the group I play Shadowrun with) to understand the rules to the point that they shudder when I mention insect spirits.
Ahhh... time for a mob war. And a corp war. I've been playing up Fuchi in recent games, so they get a lot more mention than anything but Saeder-Krupp, Ares, and Renracu... and Aztechnology. So I think pulling them apart will make the world seem a little more maleable and dangerous.
-kv
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the thing about it, remember is that wod was loosely modeled off the shadorun rules (atleast to a certain degree)
I havent had a chance to play yet. I am liking the streamlining from what ive read. I both like and dislike the wireless world thing.
Im also trying to figure out how some things work that havent been touched on yet in the new stuff
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SR4 has ben out for a while now.
Have anyone played it? Is it any good?
Are you kidding? we haven't even played 3rd yet; and GM hates Cyberpunk 2nd so we're always stuck on 1st with that if he's running :P I like 2nd. All my supplements are 2nd.
One of da guyz haS SR3 core book, so we'll pitch it at the next game change-over
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A little behind the times? ;)
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Actually, as much as it hurts gaming companies, it's usually better to be a little behind the curve, because so many products fail and are poorly made, and never go anywhere. If Zone was keeping current and playing 4th edition, she would still be waiting on good sourcebooks like the rest of us.
This way, even if she does make the jump to third edition, she'll have almost ten years worth of games and sourcebooks to swim through before she'll get to the (ugh) wireless matrix.
-kv
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Yeah the wirless matrix sounds like an interesting concept...
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It brings in several interesting tactics. Technomancers and Hackers play almost like mages now, since there's usually something around that they can wirelessly affect, in one way or another. A hacker driving a car through his 'link, for example, can real-time hack gridguide at the same time to cut his travel time. 'Course, it takes a really good hacker to do that and not get caught...
I've run quite a few games now with sr4, and I find the system to be a good one. It brings the whole game together, with all mechanics working the same. I've acquired and tested the mechanics and spells coming out of Street Magic, and even played around with a few initiate mages as NPC's. For the most part, SR4 seems the superior system.
I like it mainly because it allows a lot more player survivablility. For instance: Dodging, this used to require dice left over from your combat pool (and who ever remembered to do that before their 9th character). With the new combat system, hitting anything is an opposed test between your skill+attribute and the opponents reaction. Plus dodge or gymnastics if they decide to go on full defense. This makes for a smidgen more character survivablility. Before anyone pales in shock, remember that it takes a lot more successes now to fully dodge an attack, sr3 might let you squeak by with 2 or 3 sucesses to dodge a pistol shot, that also might only have had 2 or 3 successes. Sr4 ups the stakes.
Another thing this system offers, is a built-in mechanic to allow new players to catch up to the learning curve, as far as what they should and shouldn't decide to engage. If a character dies, he can permanently burn an edge point to "survive against the odds." In this case, he'll wake up in a hospital, or perhaps get picked up by his team, or, if I'm feeling mean... wake up in the middle of the barrens with a screwed up condition monitor. But the point is, this character is ALIVE. I don't have to mess around with having the player make a new character (greuling in sr3, and still not too much fun in sr4), or changing the name and re-introducing himself with the same stats. This mechanic, and other things invilving edge, pretty much sum up what I love about the new system. Edge replaces uber-confusing dice pools, and is generally more useful. Wiley, my advice to you, when you're making characters, is to make sure they have high edge attributes. It may seem like a waste of points at character creation, but it'll pay off later.
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If a character dies, he can permanently burn an edge point to "survive against the odds." In this case, he'll wake up in a hospital, or perhaps get picked up by his team, or, if I'm feeling mean... wake up in the middle of the barrens with a screwed up condition monitor.
I don't think we agree on the meaning of 'mean' :root:
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I believe I would have to side with ROOTless in that debate.
Mean would be having the dumbass who burned all thier karma for the "finger of god" so that they could survive lighting a magnesium flare in an oil refinery pipe shoot out into the ocean and drown.
Huh... I guess that isn't even all that mean. Not like they didn't deserve it.
-kv
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I dont think Gilliam was refering to the terminally stupid players/characters. I figured they meant the character who normally has it together but somehow gets totally screwed over by a roll or two. Part of the fun of action games or movies or whatever is when the character has everything against him and somehow cheats death. Now granted this can be overdone or done poorly but, hey, thats why GM's should be atleast someone creative ;)
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My group had two rules about the "Finger of God."
1) It could only be done once.
2) It couldn't be done with a new character, no matter how 'cool.'
-kv
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I've never really had that problem, but should it arise I'd agree with Kid Vid that it could only be used once, but I wouldn't care if it was a new character, that's their loss for burning it that early...