Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => Magic and the Planes => Topic started by: swirler on October 08, 2006, 09:48:32 AM
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in the SR4 book i saw soemthing hinted at mages in space or atleast suborbital (i need to find it again so i can phrase this better maybe)
it elluded to something being wrong with magic use and being out of earths atmosphere. it seems kinda familiar or maybe just my imagination. I have been out of the shadows for many years.
can anyone point where this is dicussed or developed?
thanks!
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It was originally mentioed in the Grimoire (IIRC, or atleas the concepts involved were), and is updated for 3rd edition in Magic in the Shadows and then further developed in Target: Wastelands. I've never read a 4th ed. book, so can't give you any hints about that.
Basically Magic is powered by Life (both capitalised, in this context), of which there isn't really anything much worth the mention in hard space.
Thus space is a huge manawarp. See the sources above for more info ;)
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I can understand shamanistic magic might be but does that include hermetic too?
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Yes.
They draw upon the same energy, only the paths to reaching it differ.
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A significantly powerful magician can work magic in space, however the background count of 10 makes doing so very, very difficult. Presumably, once colonies on the moon grow in size, the background count of the moon will be less warped. I imagine in 50 years, the background count there will be below the warp level and simply be "difficult" and not "deadly"
Several different treatises are mentioned in canon. In Target: UCAS, one Shadowland poster mentions that mana is hypothesized to move into and out of the metaplanes and that FAB Gamma was eating that mana before it could recycle, creating a warp. Presumably, the existence of life is, in theory, the gateway to the metaplanes. Hence life is required for mana to become "positively charged"
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Retread is correct, however I don't think the 50 year timeline is very realistic. Life energy, or mana, is created by the bioshpere, not simply a lot of people in one place. You would need to saturate the soils, air, and water with life to get the background count down below a 7 or 8. At least to my way of thinking. After all, a bunch of people in a can is an environment, not an ecosystem, therefore magic would still be very, very weak. Now, if you did the same thing on Mars, you might be able to pull it off quicker. But that is, again, just a theory.
Gabriel
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Well, if you were considering that life has been on earth for hundreds of thousands (millions) of years, how long would it take to cultivate manafields on celestial objects?
It's not a very likely occourance, although I wouldn't see it beyond the developers to put out something like that.
-kv
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Exactly my pooint, Kid_Vid. Thanks for the concise recap. I do think that Mars might be able to be terraformed since it is so similar to earth, but not the moon. After all, Mars has an atmosphere, albiet a very very thin one. The moon is just a rock. Of course, the Moon is also a very potent symbol, and when magic is concerned, that carries a lot of weight.
Gabriel
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Actually, I think you would have more luck cultivating manafields on biodiverse 'living ships' in space. Perhaps large crafts constructed out of organic materials, with grass and trees rather than air filtration systems, and large sails rather than rockets. It would be costly to construct, but if you wanted to have a space-based manafield, it sounds like a better bet than Zen gardens on the moon.
-kv
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Maybe, but I still think you would be REALLY limited on any kind of vessel. It's just not big enough.
Gabriel
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I was thinking inside-out biodome, so several football fields worth of space, in 360 degrees. It would be limited, but the applications wouldn't be- so magical research on the magical nature of dragons (such as the effort to undermine Lowfyr), could be conducted in a place where even he would have no access.
-kv
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Canon states that certain places in space have a warp rating lower than 10.
For example, the surface of the moon has a mana warp rating of 8. This is stated on pg. 128 of Target: Wastelands. Additionally, the same page states that some space stations have a lower background count of 8 or 9. Considering that these places have only been in existence for 30-40 years, I'd say there's a good chance that a lunar colony with hydroponics labs, recreational areas, casinos, workplaces and homes could become livable within a fairly short time line. Once again, a biosphere is not necessary, only life is, and people and their trappings count as life.
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True, but the moon has a BG of 8 only because of it's symoblic magical nature. And let's face it, having a BG drop from 8 to 5 is still are HORRIBLE environment for magic. Even wth Clensing and Filtering, you have to put a ton more energy into even the most basic magic to get it to work at all, let alone have a super-secret anti-dragon research facility. It can, however be done, I won't deny that.
Gabriel
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Yes, a background count of 5 is nasty stuff, but consider this: even the remotest ability to use magic can create an astonishing leap in the ability to terraform. You could dome off and cultivate the entire surface, little by little, slowly lowering the background count using the safe areas to rituallly quicken purifying spells. Also note that there is nothing that says that the background count of 5 could be aspected toward terraforming magicians.
I suspect that the moon's lower count is a direct result of the fact that it was actually a part of Earth long ago. This leads me to believe that there is in fact a ritual link between the moon and the earth. Subsequently that means that if a suitable astral field would allow metaplanar gateways to exist between the two bodies. Since humans are essentially spirits with a body as a jar, I'm led to believe that we are capable of intra-astral travel through the metaplanes in the same way as spirits.
Imagine what long-dying metaplane or hidden primordial or alien spirits exist on a plane that's been separated from Earth for millions of years.
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On a similiar topic, consider the Sun. It is, by many accounts the source of all life, energy, and other resources for Earth in a scientific perspective (Energy, heat, raditation, etc), as well as a magical sense (If the moon is a symbol, how about the sun? Think about all of those ancient sacrifices to appease sun gods and related activities. Most every culture revered the Sun at some point).
So my question is, hypothetically speaking, if you could get a space vessel to approach the sun Very Closely, and survive, would the background count drop? Hypothetically, what about on the sun's surface, or within it?
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So my question is, hypothetically speaking, if you could get a space vessel to approach the sun Very Closely, and survive, would the background count drop? Hypothetically, what about on the sun's surface, or within it?
Presumably, yes, indeed. It will be a while before we get to test it though, due to the (obvious) problems involved.
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Hey, long-time no see Curris. Welcome back. And yeah, I can imagine your theory is spot-on about the sun. Are you going to volunteer for that mission??? ;)
Gabriel
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Hmmm... since it takes light several minutes to reach earth, I'm going to guess this is a LONG-TERM contract. ;D Getting back would be a bitch, too- you'd better hope they pay you in advance.
-kv
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I think mars would be a good option not onlt does it have a breathable air it also plays a major part in magic ritruls and religons
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Since when did Mars get breathable air?
It has an atmossphere, yes, but IIRC it's not useful for human breathing at the moment.
And even so, Mars is probably still a better Terraforming project that Luna, simply because of the size.
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plant some trees
:)
THAT is what NASZ should be doing
spreading trees and grass seed using the rovers they have there
getting mars up and running
also we dont know about Mars past
it could be that it has some weird mystical past.
oh and yeah mars was the focus of alot of beliefs
its supposed that (according to patterns and such) that Mars orbit during certain biblical periods was very close to earth
or something like that
been awhile since I heard it
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Uhhh... I don't know how well grass and trees would do on Mars, either. I mean, I'd like to think they'd thrive, all Dune-style, but to be honest, the environment there is slightly more hostile than ours in pretty much every way.
Also, without an ozone layer, grass and trees and stuff get sunburned too. In fact, with a little more ozone layer, they wouldn't get enough UV light to run photosynthesis. At least, that's what I've been led to believe.
-kv
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And remember, Mars is COLD!!!! It may look like a hot desert, but that's just becasue we associate red with hot. Think about growing a tree in antarctica and you have a good idea how tough this would be.
Gabriel
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I didnt say all of mars is breathable and I didnt say you could breath easylier but at the lower elvetion odds are there are aphspic pockets that could sport a person might be hard breathing but could be done
and there are froms of trees that grow in cold climates
and least we for get the greek god of war Mars
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Mars was Roman, Ares was the greek name
sorry, I was a mythology freak when I was a little kid
lol
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plant some trees
:)
THAT is what NASZ should be doing
spreading trees and grass seed using the rovers they have there
getting mars up and running
also we dont know about Mars past
it could be that it has some weird mystical past.
oh and yeah mars was the focus of alot of beliefs
its supposed that (according to patterns and such) that Mars orbit during certain biblical periods was very close to earth
or something like that
been awhile since I heard it
Have you been reading Ray Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles?
A more life/mana - more magic ratio has to come into play at some point.
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yup
lol
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ok so i gt the 2 mixed up
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Cool. Karma for reading Scifi classics 8)
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heh
i practically had that book memorized by the time I hit jr High
Bradbury has always been one of my favorite authors
I used to watch that show he had for awhile
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Yes, but Luna is closer.
Radiation has some strange effect on the Astral. Presumably the background count of the sun would be off the scale due to the radiation.
When Ares dumped FAB III into Bug City, the FAB started to feed on the background count generated by the radiation. While the Sun may be the source of all life, I can only presume that it needs to be processed before it becomes "flavored" to our liking. The mana generated by the sun would be incredibly powerful.
In a symbolic way, however, I can see where the Sun may be "flavored" to our liking, however...
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With magic, EVERYTHING is symbolism. It's what makes ritual casting (and I'm talking the initiation version whose name I forget at the moment) possible at all. It's also what makes background count such a cnosideration. Sure Auschtwitz (sp) has a massive BC becasue of the suffering there, but so does the Vatican, and for a totally different reason. The Vatican has a BC of 4/5 because people beleive in the Church there, and that symbolic belief in a diety/ideology/religion fuels the astral in the area. So in a very real sense, if you get enought people believing, and I mean REALLY believing, in an idea/concept/symbol, then that belief is tuyrned into power.
Gabriel
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I've heard Salt Lake City described that way- in fact, all the megacorps have headquarters there, because they get almost free magica security.
-kv