Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => Magic and the Planes => Topic started by: BornKrazi on March 02, 2007, 03:19:38 PM
-
Okay so I've been going over the core sr3 book as well as MiTS...and I've yet to find a valid reason why adepts can't use sorcery except in astral combat. Is there something I'm missing or simply overlooking?!
Thoughts, comments, critisims, snide remarks?
-
Well, it's not so much that adepts cant use sorcery, or whatever, but more so of which type of adept are you.
Adepts, and by that I mean physical adepts, get no sorcery, in exchange for access to adept powers.
Now aspected magicians, which use priority B for magic, same as adepts, can be aspected to only have sorcery, or only have conjuring. They can also be aspected to a nature domain, or element, using both sorcery and conjuring related to whatever domain or element they've aspected to.
All of these may Astrally percieve, but only Full mages (Mages, Shamans, or Psionicists) may percieve and project.
-
Exactly. I was talking about a physical adept. I understand that you are gaining the adept powers, but what I'm not understanding is that you can use sorcery in astral combat as a physad, so why not any other time?!
-
What is meant by the statement that 'Adepts can use sorcery in astral combat' is not that they can actually cast spells in astral combat.
If you read the bit on astral combat (p. 174), you will find that in astral combat, one may substitute Sorcery skill for the relevant (un-)armed combat skill.
Adepts may do this as well.
That is all it means.
Adepts who do not have the Magic Power (MitS, p. 22) may never conjure nor cast spells. To aquire this power, they must prioritise to be 'full magician' (again MitS p. 22).
However, they can still make the same 'skill substitution' as other magicians.
Please not that, since most adepts are already highly trained in an appropriate close combat skill, this is not very often an advantage.
-
What is meant by the statement that 'Adepts can use sorcery in astral combat' is not that they can actually cast spells in astral combat.
If you read the bit on astral combat (p. 174), you will find that in astral combat, one may substitute Sorcery skill for the relevant (un-)armed combat skill.
Adepts may do this as well.
That is all it means.
Adepts who do not have the Magic Power (MitS, p. 22) may never conjure nor cast spells. To aquire this power, they must prioritise to be 'full magician' (again MitS p. 22).
So why then would it say "(Note using Sorcery in this manner does 'use up' Sorcery dice for purposes of spell defense, spellcasting, and so on.)" [p.174]
-
Because you can allocate sorcery dice for spell resistance tests (it's a nice trick for mages, and an even nastier one for adepts).
Physads can cast spells if they have the "Path of the Magician" power, which costs one point of powers, and gives you an effective magic rating (for casting) of 1. So my pot head mage, Jeff, had three points of magical power, and improved reflexes.
When fighting astrally, Jeff could substitute his sorcery skill (4/6) for his unarmed combat skill (6), if he really wanted to. Instead, I would use my unarmed combat, and then allocate my sorcery dice for spell resistance, so that anyone who hit me with a spell would regret wasting the energy.
-kv
-
Right I understand that, but what I'm saying is that in the core book (which didn't mention anything about the 'Path of the Magican') it says that a physad while engaging in astral combat can use the Astral Combat specialization of Sorcery (which includes spellcasting on the next line). So what I don't understand is that if they can use it in astral combat why can't they use it all the time?
Now I remember reading (probably in MiTS) where it explained how mana and whatnot was different in astral space, such as a lower level of force to case a spell and still have the same effect...something like that. I dunno, maybe I'm not expressing correctly what I'm asking, but I'm not gonna rack my brain over it. I know what to do if I want to be spell slinger, and I know what to do if I wanna be a physad...so I guess that's all that matters ;D
-
Yeah, you're right about astral space being different. For instance, in astral space, spells do physical drain. Just like if you were overcasting, only you take extreme damage when casting spells in astral.
Physads can't cast unless they take the path of magician power (which I think might be in MITS... although I thought it was in SR3... I'll have to check on that, or perhaps ROOTless, our local magic guru could help us out).
-kv
-
It could be in the core book, I might've overlooked it. I do know it is in MiTS.
-
So why then would it say "(Note using Sorcery in this manner does 'use up' Sorcery dice for purposes of spell defense, spellcasting, and so on.)" [p.174]
BEcause not just adepts may use sorcery in this way. Magician may as well (indeed are more likely to do so), for them the dice are used up.
There is nothing in that statement to indicate that adepts suddently aquire the ability to cast spells just because their percieve astrally.
The Path of the Magician is MitS, p. 22 (as is the adept power 'Magic Power', as mentioned previously.
OK, right. Let's do this full scale.
When you're fighting astrally, it has fairly little to do with the blows you throw, the way you kick. It's about imposing your will upon the astral energies.
The anomaly is not that you can use sorcery instead of your close combat skill, but that (un-)armed combat skills work at all!
If I'm astrally projecting, and come upon an adept, who's using astral perception, and I decide to punch his lights out, I have certain options.
I can 1) Cast a spell on him. Probably a bad idea, considering that all drain is physical if I cast while in the astral.
2) Hit him with my Force 4 Katana shaped Weapon Focus, using my Edged Weapons skill, katana specialization. This would be physical damage, starting at (willpower+3)M. Me Weapon Focus is astrally active, and fully existing, so I can use whatever I've learned in those 6 years of kenjutsu training.
3) Hit him with my Weapon Focus, as above, but using my sorcery skill.
4)Punch him with my astral fist, (willpower)M stun. Using my unarmed combat skill (all those years in the karate dojo).
5) Punch him with my astral fist, as above, but using my sorcery skill instead.
So, how does this work?
In all of the above cases, what I do is the same! I manipulate astral energy at the adept.
This is done using the sorcery skill.
So why does it work with my Edged Weapons/Unarmed Combat skills?
Because of my belief that it must. I have extensive experience with punching/swinging a sword, I know how it works, and what results I can expect. Astral space responds to belief/passion/certainty.
Swining my sword with my skill from the (physical) dojo only works because I believe that it must, and impose my will/belief upon the surroundings.
An experienced magician, or an adept who knows and understands the trick of it, does not need to do this, but can instead manipulate the astral energies directly, through the skill of sorcery.
this does not require or imply ability to use actual spells, only and exclusively understanding of how to manipulate astral energies in specific ways.
Adepts without the 'Magic Power' (which requires them to have paid for a full magician, btw) cannot shape spells. They cannot touch the astral in that way, they cannot force their minds into the necessary shape.
Indeed probably the best description of hw spell casting works was in the old Grimoire (for second edition), on p. 110. A pity that it was not reprinted:
One definition of magic is the ability to go mad in a very specific way for a limited time. From the psychological viewpoint, a spell is an induced neurosis or even a psychosis, created for a split second to channel psychic energy in a particular way.
The basic adept does not have the ability to force his mind to do this.
-
Right I understand that, but what I'm saying is that in the core book (which didn't mention anything about the 'Path of the Magican') it says that a physad while engaging in astral combat can use the Astral Combat specialization of Sorcery (which includes spellcasting on the next line).
No, it says that a character may do this.
It is not specifc to adepts.
Indded, thay are probably the least likely to do so.
-
You're right it is not specific to adepts, it mearly mentions in paratheses "like adepts". So thank you for your explination. Like I said in my previous post, I'm giving up on trying to create a physad that can sling spells (without the 'Magic Power'). I basically understand why they can use sorcery in astral combat, but still don't see why if they have magical ability and can enhance their bodies, why they can't sling spells. But it doesn't really matter, if I want to sling spells I'll make a Mage or Shaman. If I want to kick your ass with my magically enhanced physical abilities, I'll make an adept! ;D
-
Exactly.
-
I think you should make adept... ;D
-
;D
-
I've never understood why anyone would WANT a physad who can cast spells. If you want that, get a mage. If you want a guy who can punch through a wall or jump off a skyraker, get an adept.
Gabriel
-
Here's a reason. Unpredictability.
As soon as you hop off that skyraker and punch through the concrete below into the sewers, people think that they have your ticket. They send whatever at you, focusing on anti-adept. So they work at a range, so you can't punch out their lights.
So when you start slinging mojo, they don't know which way to go, and suddenly they're afraid of just what else you can do that no one knows about.
Then you tell them you're a dragon in human form. . .
-
Well, splitting all of the points between sorcery and adept powers will leave you being crappy at both of them. If you get technical, you could be loaded with cybernetics and get REALLY unpredictable. You'd still be crappy, though.
Gabriel
-
My reason for wanting to try it was the the rest of the runner group was so twinked out that I didn't get to do anything. Ever. Even in spell-casting situations, the morons would run into combat and start hacking at stuff.
So I made a mage who went really, REALLY fast. A mage going that fast is very dangerous, because they go in the middle of combat, rather than the end, and suddenly, combat ends in the middle of all the brainless street sams hacking at things.
As we became more powerful, everyone else twinked out thier characters even further, but instead of making my character faster, I made him more powerful, so they were going faster, but I was able to completely stop combat. It makes for a powerful combination (at least for 3rd edtion- I don't think you have enough points to do anything like it in 4th edition)
-kv
-
Stunballs all around!
Kid_Vid, looks like your thoughts on the subject are similar to mine.
The greatest weakness of the magicians is the low initiative, so if we could just fix that, without resorting to sustaining foci or quickened spells...
-
I just like to be different...I played a burned out mage who didn't even cast a spell. I think I had a fireball or something at like Force 2 but I never used it. But it made for a great way to light cigarettes for the ladies...
-
With a fireball at force 2? I hope there were a lot of them, and they were chain smokers... ;D
Actually, I liked playing a adept-mage. I mean, he was underpowered, but he was so fast that it didn't really matter. "Oh, you shrugged off my Force 3 stunbolt? Well, it's my intiative again, and you're all out of combat pool. Let's see how you do with this one. ZAP!"
Also, it was good for me to learn the magic system- in fact, I was the only one who did. Ruski, while something of a technical genius, didn't integrate magic well into the game.
-kv
-
Well, whatever makes you all happy. It just seemed like trying to be two things at once just wouldn't make any sense in the real world.
Gabriel
-
acturly its quite commen for ppl to professionals to pruse 2 or more fields of intrest
-
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Gabriel
-
And I've learned in Shadowrun its best to master one and work on a second when you retire!
-
Damn straight.
Gabriel