Shadowrun Pub

Shadowrun RPG => SR5 (Shadowrun 5th Edition) General Discussion => Topic started by: APOCALYPSE on February 19, 2021, 09:18:57 AM

Title: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 19, 2021, 09:18:57 AM
Hello Pubbers,

My kid is out of the house (if you can believe that or not, one more year till she graduates university) and my wife and starts boardgaming last year. This has finally led me back to my love of Shadowrun and interest from my wife so...
I have slowly started getting back into Shadowrun after many many years so have been slowly reading and reviewing the various editions.

I am starting with the 2nd Edition (mainly for nostalgic reasons and the book I first got) and going through the various editions. Obviously there is a sixth edition now.
So I’m debating to get each edition just for fun or just stick with editions 2,5, and 6. I’m assuming that 6 would cover previous history in previous editions but no ideas as I haven’t gotten that far yet.

Does anyone have any reference or know the differences between the editions?
Also, would just a 2nd edition and 6th edition be enough to delve back into the Shadowrun world?

Thoughts, advise, comments (good or bad) is welcome.
Look forward to responses.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on February 20, 2021, 07:26:59 AM
2nd and 3rd are very similar. So much so that 3rd mostly feels like a bugfix for 2nd. Except that the rules from Virtual Realities 2 became the default Matrix rule. ...and I firmly believe that to be an improvement.

I haven't played 4th ed or any of the later ones. As far I've been able to tell, they took the then-latest version of the Storyteller system, changed the dice from d10 to d6 and called it a day. And since that version of Storyteller wasn't much worth my time, I've stuck with 2nd/3rd edition myself.

As for the 6th edition ... I have yet to hear anyone utter a kind word about it. Sadly. I'd like to though.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 20, 2021, 11:42:38 AM
Ok. Good comments. From research, seems to coincide with what you are saying and I believe your word over most of the internet....lol.
I’m buying a 2nd edition soon then thinking to collect the others as I can.
I think I mainly want to catch up on history as would be interesting to play in the various decades potentially.

Hopefully some of the other pubbers pop in with some comments.
Also, hoping to refresh and get lost in the shadows again.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on February 22, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Hopefully some of the other pubbers pop in with some comments.
That would be awesome!
Quote
Also, hoping to refresh and get lost in the shadows again.
I know the feeling!
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 22, 2021, 07:11:05 PM
How often have others been dropping by?
I see Ingo and Jester and Kid Vid here and there.

I love getting back into Shadowrun.
It been an interesting journey back into the Shadowrun and shows me what I have missed all these years.
We literally have been boardinggaming and upping the challenge each time of games. I stumbled upon a deck building game called Shadowrun Crossfire Prime Runner. Surprisingly, my wife had been enjoying so she said maybe she might be willing to give the real thing a try.

This led me to the books and I have been able to find a lot in the Matrix which has been great. So I’m getting just the core response or books then downloading or printing the rest.
I found The London Sourcebook, Dunkelzhan’s Secrets, Harlequin among many other delightful ones that I remember.

It’s been really exciting and trying to just get the stuff I like.
Got a second edition on the way now then will get the third but just debating to jump to sixth mainly for history info and see what I missed.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on February 23, 2021, 03:49:13 AM
Zone was here a lot until recently.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 26, 2021, 06:28:45 PM
Hopefully she drops back in as wouldn’t mind to hear her thoughts.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Capt_North on February 26, 2021, 08:17:08 PM
Ha! Look what the cat dragged back in!!! Welcome back ya old dragon!!

Sadly, my shadowrun esition knowledge is fairly limited. Ive found i like 5th,, seems to flow smoothly, and disliked 4th, felt rather jank.

Though one game i almost joined the gm was hesitant to go from 4th to 5th, but then jumped full hearted after a couple games, and shes a pretty big SR fan. Havent heard much about 6th, aside from the little starter thing got a right paddling.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 26, 2021, 08:48:55 PM
Hey Capt’n

Good to hear another familiar voice.
Good to hear the comments as I’m really starting fresh so got a lot to catch up on but looking forward to it.
I’m starting back with second edition as just need to remember things first. Even old age catches up with a dragon.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Capt_North on February 27, 2021, 01:43:38 AM
Yup. All ive heard is 3rds 2 with a fresh paint job and new radio. 5th fixes things up pretty well as well.

... 4th.. eeehhh. They introduced wireless and pushed a lot of ideas i still find stupid, like to trigger spurs as a free action it has to be a wireless connection... cause evidently before having it plugged directly to your nervous system didnt work. Its small stuff that just doesnt make sense to me but is pushed cause someone got a bug spirit up their ass about wireless.

This does continue into 5th, but carries same issues still. It doesnt even fix anything. Youd expect wireless mods to cost less essence as they dont have to dig through your body as much... but essence cost is still the same. Smartguns now get constant weather updates and all to help adjust for windage and such, but give the same bonus as wired, not counting options of dropping mag wirelessly, firing mode selection, ect...

But it also comes with the threat of getting hacked. Now guys can make your smartgun spaz out, eject mag, throw off aim major, and if you have a triggerless mod start firing randomly.

Its just dumb and badly written. Why would wireless make it so you can do all these things as free actions, but being wired you cant? Its not like wifi is faster.

Anyways. Thats my big grump with current stuff.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 27, 2021, 03:21:27 AM
Makes sense what you are saying. Sounds like someone got excited to add something but didn’t think it through especially with wireless versus wired. What about magic? Any differences there?
Does sixth edition fix this at all?

When I get to the point then may have to make my own rule modifiers....
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on February 27, 2021, 05:11:08 AM
Hopefully she drops back in as wouldn’t mind to hear her thoughts.
Seconded.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on February 27, 2021, 05:15:46 AM
Its just dumb and badly written. Why would wireless make it so you can do all these things as free actions, but being wired you cant? Its not like wifi is faster.
I understand the parallels to phones and all that. But we've been digging control chips out of vehicles since 2nd/3rd edition. If I was taking my gun out for absolutely any type of black op, I'd turn off the wireless before I left home. Both to not broadcast my location constantly, but also to keep it from going BSoD from some silly update in the middle of a gunfight.

Silly.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Capt_North on February 28, 2021, 03:53:27 AM
Its just dumb and badly written. Why would wireless make it so you can do all these things as free actions, but being wired you cant? Its not like wifi is faster.
I understand the parallels to phones and all that. But we've been digging control chips out of vehicles since 2nd/3rd edition. If I was taking my gun out for absolutely any type of black op, I'd turn off the wireless before I left home. Both to not broadcast my location constantly, but also to keep it from going BSoD from some silly update in the middle of a gunfight.

Silly.

Yeah, cept now its not just your gun, but your arm being controlled wirelessly. So less you just want them to hang limp at your sides while your running around..

granted its suppose to be a VERY short range network thing, i've heard between like 20 yards and 3 feet being the range someone has to be to hack you... but still. it just feels like it was jammed in to try and push something. They could ahve easily given the option of a wired one that has a higher essence cost, but better security while still having those same options, and wireless, which has a good deal lower essence, but those security holes (maybe even some extra options like quick connect, dont need to buy a palmpad for your smartgun as its already connecting wirelessly)
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on February 28, 2021, 05:03:22 AM
The more I hear the more it sounds like some special mods are needed now especially to compensate for these issues.

And changes in magic? Or still the same?
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on February 28, 2021, 08:58:08 AM
Yeah, cept now its not just your gun, but your arm being controlled wirelessly. So less you just want them to hang limp at your sides while your running around..
Doesn't that just make my point so much more unsubtle? why would anyone design or accept an arm that subject to BSoD? Let it update in a docking station at home. It doesn't need to be online while it's in use.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Capt_North on March 02, 2021, 02:08:33 PM
Yeah, cept now its not just your gun, but your arm being controlled wirelessly. So less you just want them to hang limp at your sides while your running around..
Doesn't that just make my point so much more unsubtle? why would anyone design or accept an arm that subject to BSoD? Let it update in a docking station at home. It doesn't need to be online while it's in use.

The more I hear the more it sounds like some special mods are needed now especially to compensate for these issues.

And changes in magic? Or still the same?

Yup. Its a general story telling fail to me. could have been handled so much better.

And sadly, no idea on magic. never was quiet my thing aside from the rare physad..
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 02, 2021, 07:16:25 PM
Yeah, cept now its not just your gun, but your arm being controlled wirelessly. So less you just want them to hang limp at your sides while your running around..
Doesn't that just make my point so much more unsubtle? why would anyone design or accept an arm that subject to BSoD? Let it update in a docking station at home. It doesn't need to be online while it's in use.

For some reason this made me laugh too much. Probably because I can imagine it. Just charge and use if. Who’s cares if online or not.  ;D
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Capt_North on March 02, 2021, 08:45:03 PM
But! But! But!!! Think of all the nuyen youll save being able to update in the go without having to make a doc appointment to update the drivers!!
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Zone on March 03, 2021, 09:27:56 AM
Hopefully she drops back in as wouldn’t mind to hear her thoughts.

I'm here! I'm here! It's not like I was off somewhere ditching body parts or hiding from Interpol!

Like you I am out of practice with RP games.  I know Huny and I dissected the newer version(s) of SR at some point, but I don't have the near eidetic memory that he has, so I'll touch base with him and and try and get you some specific critiques rather that just a vague and general distaste for the overhauls. 
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 03, 2021, 01:29:12 PM
Hopefully she drops back in as wouldn’t mind to hear her thoughts.

Glad to see you are still here. No worries. I can’t tell you how exciting it has been to read these books again little by little. Look forward to comments when you have time.

I'm here! I'm here! It's not like I was off somewhere ditching body parts or hiding from Interpol!

Like you I am out of practice with RP games.  I know Huny and I dissected the newer version(s) of SR at some point, but I don't have the near eidetic memory that he has, so I'll touch base with him and and try and get you some specific critiques rather that just a vague and general distaste for the overhauls.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on March 04, 2021, 12:27:26 PM
If you do go with the 2nd edition in the end, please get Virtual Realities 2.0!
It re-writes how the matrix works completely, and the result is much more realistic as well as smoother and more elegant.
This is also the system they went with in 3rd edition.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 04, 2021, 06:08:06 PM
I started with 2nd. Just got it yesterday so will start reading soon.
Plus just go the first three novels as I remember they were a great read.

And to think that it led me back after we bought a board game.
We got Shadowrun Crossfire.
It’s a deck builder and the Shadowrun theme probably isn’t necessary to play but it just enhances the game for fans (like us). Only played once so far but it was fun all in all. And most importantly opens the door a bit for my better half.

I plan to read Matrix 2.0 eventually but got a ways to go. But will get it done again.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on March 05, 2021, 05:51:05 AM
Enjoy!
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Ingo Monk on March 06, 2021, 02:06:25 AM
Here's my take:

SR1
The original gangster. I have the core book but I've never actually played it.

SR2
The one that started it for me, fond memories of my youth. Due to inexperience of my youth (I had only played AD&D 2nd prior to this) I didn't find anything wrong with the system.

SR3
Like SR2 but better. It was super easy to min/max and break the game though... I've had to deal with a few players with " GM ToolsTM " (i.e. you wake up naked, all your gear is gone) lol

SR4
My group played this version a lot, it simplified and streamlined stuff so the mechanics went a lot faster and smoother. I don't like how deckers basically ceased to exist in the traditional sense, replaced with on-the-fly hacking. My group was never into decking though as in previous versions taking time out of a game so a decker could do their thing ended up boring everyone else. This hacking model made it so you could use that mechanic during combat to do interesting things.
Examples:
Hacking was fun, but didn't feel true to Shadowrun, not that my group cared that much.

SR5
I've got a virtual copy of the core book and I've read through it but I've never actually played it. It seems to streamline the game system even more than SR4 to make it faster, brought back decking, but feels like it was missing some of the gritty-ness of SR somehow.

SR6
I've only read bad things


Summary
If I were to summarize (and also point out it's been like 10 years since I've played a game of SR), I think SR4 ended up being my favorite. I felt like the gritty SR-ness with the mechanics flow balanced well for overall fun. Since my gaming group at the time had no love for decking the hacking model actually added to the game for them.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 06, 2021, 07:45:16 PM
This is a great explanation and helpful.
After hearing so far then think I’m going to start back with 2nd edition then slowly work my way up to the new one.
I’m not in a hurry and see most of the books are pretty reasonable.
Plus got a great online source thanks to a pub chummer.

I’ll keep you posted as I get back into this.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Zone on March 08, 2021, 12:01:09 PM
Going to join the 2/3 camp, You can cherry pick these and basically you get the game it should be. I did play 4 once but it did not blow my skirt up (Where is Gabe when I drop lines like that).  My spouse hates all the 4 and up redos and points at 5 as a hot mess, the magic system gives him hives.  I can't say, not having read the book, but take it as you wish. Neither of us knows anything about 6 but I found a review of it for you: https://www.geeknative.com/68602/it-says-shadowrun-on-the-cover-a-review-of-shadowrun-6e/
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 08, 2021, 12:15:51 PM
Has Gabe frequented recently? Curious how that guy has been doing.

Seems the consensus on 6th is pretty consistent. I’ve been combing various places and most say about the same. A couple good things but most bad. However, I got to say that the “Purple” comment was the first that I had read and now I can see it....

Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on March 09, 2021, 04:53:17 PM
Has Gabe frequented recently? Curious how that guy has been doing.

Haven't seen him in a while.

As for the editions thing...
In 3rd (and to a slightly lesser extent 2nd), there was a very healthy principle: You always know how many dice you have. What varies is the Target Number. 4th and later editions, this was thrown out with the bathwater. And I tend to believe this was an absolutely horrible game design decision, and that whomever made that decision, should've lost the SR license, right then and there.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: Ingo Monk on March 09, 2021, 10:43:39 PM
Has Gabe frequented recently? Curious how that guy has been doing.

Haven't seen him in a while.

As for the editions thing...
In 3rd (and to a slightly lesser extent 2nd), there was a very healthy principle: You always know how many dice you have. What varies is the Target Number. 4th and later editions, this was thrown out with the bathwater. And I tend to believe this was an absolutely horrible game design decision, and that whomever made that decision, should've lost the SR license, right then and there.

That's an excellent point about the adjusting target numbers vs adjusting dice pools.

I recall in SR2 there were dice pools which were calculated based on stats/skills that you could allocate per combat turn (not round). You still rolled dice based on your skills, but you could focus more on attack or defense, spell casting or drain, etc. by adjusting your skill pool with these calculated pools (which for the life of me I can't recall the name of). Exploding 6's were required in a lot of scenarios. Attributes were really just there as limiters to skills and defining karma costs, and only really used with direct tests (i.e. Body to resist damage, Strength to lift something).

In SR3 they did away with this calculated dice pool model, dice pools were just stat + skill IIRC. There was still adjusting target numbers but the system was more straightforward than SR2.

SR4 basically took SR3's system, removed the adjusting target numbers (essentially TN is always 5), and test modifiers either added or removed dice from your pool, which means you sometimes needed a lot of D6's and by nature there were a lot of opposed tests. As ROOT is pointing out, it took away from some of the essence of SR. The main reason I liked it is because it made being a GM way easier... just add or remove dice from the player or your pool to adjust difficulty. In SR3 I found myself referencing the charts on the GM screen often while in SR4 I found myself just calling out plus or minus dice to the players.

Essentially, with each new edition the required amount of math was reduced... which means SR6 at this point is Kindergarten level math? :bob:



Gabe hasn't posted since 2007, and hasn't logged in since 2011 or so. I used to have him as a friend on Facebook but I just looked and I don't see him anymore. Last I recall he was still on the east coast of the US and had gotten married.  :o
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on March 10, 2021, 05:54:57 AM
In SR3 they did away with this calculated dice pool model, dice pools were just stat + skill IIRC. There was still adjusting target numbers but the system was more straightforward than SR2.
Nope, that was 4th edition. 3rd edition was mostly a cleaned-up version of 2nd. I have the book on the table next to me ;)
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 10, 2021, 09:14:51 PM
Makes sense what you are saying. I’m starting to read 2nd edition and think I’m going to buy 6th edition just so I can read through it. Would like to compare to really see the differences. So will keep all posted as I do this. I like to read so hoping at least if the 6th rules are drek then at least down good background or information on the 2080 world.

I got an insert with the crossfire game that we bought which has a very condensed summary over from the beginning to 2080. I saw something about personalities changes completely and suddenly potentially linked to a lab-driven virus or similar. This seemed interesting so am curious what this is and hopefully a little detail explained in the new book.
Would be nice to sort of build a history from the past to the current to connect this if I ever get an actual game going.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: APOCALYPSE on March 15, 2021, 03:17:27 PM
Ok. I have officially purchased a 2nd and 6th edition.
Let my research commence!
I’ll keep you posted as I read.
Title: Re: Differences between Editions
Post by: ROOTless on March 16, 2021, 09:49:13 AM
Good luck!
and enjoy :)