Shadowrun Pub
Shadowrun RPG => SR3 (Shadowrun 3rd Edition) General Discussion => Topic started by: Capt_North on December 17, 2005, 02:27:38 PM
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Alright, after bungling and posting in the RL general one i have finally managed to by pure luck wander into the right place to put my post...
Yippee for getting lost on the Matrix..
Anyways, Been quiet a while since i've posted here, and now im finding that there is a 4th edition coming out (is out?) and i just managed to get the 3rd core and the 2nd ed cybertechnology book.. no wonder some of those vamps out there are so amazed by new stuff that seems to get spewed out by the corps.. anyways, Good to see those of you who do know me again, and to all you new (ish) people, who the heck are you and what are you doing here!!!
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Welcome to the new digs cap'n.
And yeah, the 4th edition is out now, though that doesn't mean we have to like it...
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Ah, i take it that the 4th isnt very liked?
3rd seems pretty good, havent gotten chance to play yet, though the tech looks good, and like the cybertech book, all those nice new toys... *drools a moment*
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Ah, i take it that the 4th isnt very liked?
Haven't played it yet myself, or even read the book, but I can't say I'm a great fan of the changes I have read about.
3rd seems pretty good, havent gotten chance to play yet, though the tech looks good, and like the cybertech book, all those nice new toys... *drools a moment*
Oh yes, the 3rd edition is very nifty.
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oohh? What kind of changes? this is first i've heard so got no clue what they are changing, just hope they arent whoring it out to the d20 system like they are doing with every other game system these days... damn wizards of the coast!!
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I try to pretend the D20 system does not exist. Off the track but...I loved playing Star Wars RPG. The session we had with that laste about 18 months real time and still stands as one of the best games ever played with the most enduring characters. Saving roles were catagorized by us as 'easy, 'moderate', 'hard' 'extremely hard', 'yeah right' and 'good fucking luck' and the best part - especially in the higher levels - was the obscene number of dice one got to throw down. I will never play Star Wars D20 after I had to go out and buy a sack of green sixers just to try for a 'good fucking luck' roll and had a ball smashing my stolen shuttle through the atmosphere and into the ocean.
As for SR4 - I only used my SR3 character once - I gotta have more field time than that. GM is funny though - he prefers SR 2 and Cyberpunk 1 and when we play we play his way since I don't GM.
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Ah, the old West End games version? i actually have a bunch of my old books backed up on my PC, rules seemd bit unbalanced couple times.. like because i rolled enough 6's that i was able to shoot down a starfighter with a hold out blaster... course after that lotta people would dive for covere when pulled one.. hehe
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Third edition is pretty balanced, if you don't mind mucking through some slower game mechanics required for shooting out of a moving car, or having your team wait while your chummer hackes that trix...
the new edition streamlines stuff nicely, but not dummed down to D20.
Personally, I like it; but I haven't gotten a game in yet.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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The 4th Edition rules seem pretty neat, but it's like a whole different game. I have yet to play it though. Anyway, from reading it even if I don't like it I'd want to convert the WMI stuff to 3rd edition cuz it's neat and someone in my group would end up playing a matrix-type character finally.
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I don't understand how they can get rid of an entire archetype, though- I mean, I understand that Hackers (or deckers, whichever you prefer) are somewhat similar to riggers, but the datajacks even went to different areas of the brain. (deckers plugged into the audio/visual aspect, and riggers plugged into the movement/reaction aspect.)
So. what's the deal with riggers? Why would they have been affected by the Wireless matrix Initiative? (Rules too hard to convert?)
Just wondering.
-kv
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Well, part of the original problem with riggers is their hardware and skillset were killing the PC's playability.
you have to deticate 5 essence, and all of your skills to driving.
most of them weren't any better with a gun than the decker.
bouth archtypes were effectivly retarded for the core of actually 'running'
sure, if you went with drones, you could have a little robot in your place to talk to the other players while you sat in the car; but the robot was virtually skill-less; and unless you put some serious hardware (read $) into it, it wouldn't help much in the stand-up fights that teams seem to get into.
so, they made the technology more accesable. the street-sam can have a data-jack, and a decent car skill, and pull off a decent rigger. (or, on the flip-side, the rigger has enough essence left over after saving the 5 essence and money from a level 3 VCR that he can get a couple of decent cars, some supportive hardware, and end up holding his own in a fight.
or, if you want to play total support, you can make your decker drive. it's really only one more skill anyways, and the skill line between deckers and riggers was pretty transparent anyways.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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That distinction comes from the fact that the players think they HAVE to put all their skills into Computer, et al. When push comes to shove, a player should even out all of their skills because I have a nasty habit of using my Oh Crap! dice to place the players in situations where they should have a different skill. Nearly everyone should at least have Car 1 or 2 and in the BeCKs Karma system, you could have it by sacrificing roughly 4 Karma points. Deckers can use their deck to emulate Rigger remote control protocols too, you know.
Ever see what a Rigger using a JIM exoskeleton can do? Imagine a powered suit of armor with 10 strength and a Control pool that can walk alongside a group of runners. Rigger protocols can apply to anything, literally. A talented rigger with Biotech can doctor better with a Valkyrie module than being there in person, even. The fact that a rigger can literally control a group of 5 drones in a fleet at once gives them some mean staying power too. Set up some pre-programmed command sets so you can order your fleet to "Sic the Troll" and watch that troll sammie get lit up by 5 different bursts of LMG fire with more recoil control than you can rightfully have on a meat-bod. How about some Body 0 wall-spider or fly drones that can sneak through ventilation shafts and do some spy work. Need that c4 in a spot without getting your face on a camera? Roll it in on a remote control car through some very small sewer pipes.
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*shrug* I don't know. It's been my experence that if you want to load up with drones, you end up spending all your money on drones, and you have to drive one of the other runner's cars. and if you want any real sort of transport (like a t-bird) you'll have to have a solo-run sponcered by yourself just to get it.
*shrug*
the cost of the hardware, (essence, and newyen) was also kinda prohibitive.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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I went for vehicles first - a place to put them in safety second, and then I started playing with drones. I still don't have that many listed on my sheet.
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but how many runs did you have to pull off as the 'gettaway gal' before you could get a decent vechile, some place to park it, and now, finally, some drones to help the team?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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It's pretty much guaranteed that you'll end up spending all of your money, but if you manage to invest in a vehicle facility, you can pretty much design your own drones at a fraction of the cost. Granted, the logistics of such a facility leave something to be desired. B/R skills are a must for riggers, period.
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but how many runs did you have to pull off as the 'gettaway gal' before you could get a decent vechile, some place to park it, and now, finally, some drones to help the team?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
Well...a bunch ;D But then we had the lucky hit. Everything that could go wrong did, but everybody who should have died didn't and the payoff as a result of all the wrong folks dying and all the runners surviving against the odds was huge. That's when I bought my house...
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You know, Retread, it's funny you should mention the powered armor thing. We had discussed how that might work several times, but we never were able to pound out the rules that would make it possible. I think the main idea came down to something along the lines of, "Why have a rigged suit of powered armor that would result in the death of the rigger if it were breeched when you can just have a big-hoop drone and keep the rigger in relative safety elswhere?" Of course, I can see some instances when you would want the rigger "on site", but they are pretty limited.
Gabriel
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Err... Like when you're underwater and Radio signals don't work? Or like when you're in the Renraku arcology and there's a super-genius AI with Electronics (Electronic Warfare) 20 doing the jamming?
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Exactly. I mean, let's be honest, how often do you even GET an AI, much less an insane AI? That's pretty singular. And as for the underwater thing, well I can't see an anthopomorphic suite of battle armor being terribly useful for swimming and handling pressure. I know they have things called K-Suites (I belive they are called) designed for this, but that's the only one's I've heard about. The point was that the instances that a suit like this would be useful were so limited that very few people would develop the things.
Gabriel
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The JIM suit I designed is treated like a vehicle, it has Smart Materials by design so it costs like 4 times as much to make and you get a massive handling bonus that negates the underwater combat rules. Essentially it was designed with a "smart" memory plastisteel composite that formed fins at its limbs and the locomotion and pressure regulation is provided by more memory plastic that forms artificial muscles that operate on the surface to regulate pressure. The suit is uncomfortable as all hell though, because the pressure regulation relies on the suit having nearly no space so the operator has to be adapted to a liquid medium before use through a breathing tube and the suit compressed itself to fit the wearer like a skin. The reliance on an electric fuel cell has it's limits as well. The suit is like a part plastic-part plastisteel giant person. The suit gives a weird sort of semi-humanoid form. All your quickness checks while using the thing were done as Driving Tests using the Walker vehicle skill.
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Well damn. I wonder if that's the only use of "power armor" in the game? I can imagine some applications in space, but again, a Drone would be much easier and cost-effective to my mind.
Gabriel
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In space they'd still use a cable, especially since most space assets are too expensive to risk a rival corp or other ne'er-do-wells who would infiltrate a radio signal. The key part of people actually piloting vehicles is that the pilot can't be "jammed"
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Now that's a good point. However, I still think the battle-armor/powered-armor concept will be a long time coming in SR. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like a Cyclone bike once the technology is worked out, just that I think I will be one old elf when it finally gets here. ;)
Gabriel
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So... re-asserting someone's genetics to make them 21 again and replacing your entire neuro-muscular system with artificial implants implies that there can't be a robotic suit? There are already anthro-form drones, making one big enough to fit a person doesn't seem that hard to me...
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No, I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that with drone technology (and now the wireless matrix :::insert gagging noise here:::) it just seems easier and more efficient to use drones instead of powered armor. I never said it couldn't be done, just that there were some problems with power source and reasons for using them.
ANd keep in mind, however you power a suite, you will have to shield the wearer from the effects of the power source while at the same time scaling things to the point of being compatible with the wearer's body. If you make it too big, you end up with an anthro-drone with a pilot sitting inside of it. Go too small and you get a workable suite of armor that is under-powered. Every layer of material you put over the body will start to interfear with mobility.
Gabriel
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That's where the Smart Materials come in. You can have an anthroform drone with a pilot that has more maneuverability in this manner. Using smart materials, plastics that bend and flex like realistic tissue that is also bulletproof you can negate the effects. In a specific manner, you could supplement the suits powersource to a lower rate and hook up the suit to be powered by your central nervous system through a vehicle control rig. The smart materials essentially give the "vehicle" an effective handling of -2 which is better than what a normal person could walk. The power-source is a safe electric fuel cell, described in Rigger 3 as a relatively small size. It's like having a second skin made of bullet-proof plastic that flexes with your own movement.
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I's got no idea whatcha'll taking bout!
though, since its bout cyber tech.. got couple questions raised by the Cybertechnology book i got...
like an internal air tank... what would happen if stray shot hit that.. i couldnt imagine it being very clean, or pleasant, and what would classify as a hit to it?
and the Move By Wire system, would be possible to get a trigger for that like with wired reflexes? and if so wouldnt there be chance of a "failure" or such of the system not working properly and compensating for the seizure?
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like an internal air tank... what would happen if stray shot hit that.. i couldnt imagine it being very clean, or pleasant, and what would classify as a hit to it?
You are a twisted individual, Captain...
I'd include it as part of the cyber that could fail using the normal failure rules. Anything that is likely to puncture the air tank would also likely cause major lung trauma (for example if the same damage occurred on someone without the air tank) and the rules don't handle blood filled lungs.
Of course, if it DID fail (or was punctured), it would depend on how full the tank was...
and the Move By Wire system, would be possible to get a trigger for that like with wired reflexes? and if so wouldnt there be chance of a "failure" or such of the system not working properly and compensating for the seizure?
As far as I'm aware, Move By Wire is constantly active. That's why it has such problems with long-term effects.
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AHEM! With rules taken from Man and Machine, a third edition cybertechnology book, cyberware, bioware and attributes take Stress Points based on damage being taken.
Stress is received on a character when they take damage from a Wound Effect or from exceeding the physical limitations of the ware in general or lack of maintenence.
A wound effect occurs when the highest die roll on the character's Damage Resistance test does not exceed the number of boxes of damage taken (Physical or Stun) The difference between these numbers is the number of Wound Effects taken. For each wound effect, roll 1d6. On a result of 1-2, a cyber-system is damaged, 3-4 bioware, 5-6 and attribute damage is taken. If the character rolls cyber or bioware system damage but possesse neither, they take no wound effects. When a system is damaged, the GM should determine randomly which systems are affected.
Special note (electrical damage) : For each wound effect caused by electrical damage (tasers, lightning bolts, electric fences), another wound effect is rolled. If that number is a 1 or 2, it causes damage to a cyber-system. Any other result is disregarded.
The book recommends assigning numbers based on essence in "essence slots" That is to say, that muscle replacement I takes up 1 essence slot and thus is damaged if a 1 is rolled on 1d6. However, this might take too much time so a GM is free to determine what is damaged in one way or another. If no slots are "hit" on a die roll, there is no wound effect. When a system is selected, it takes 1-3 Stress points and must make a stress test to check if the system or attribute fails.
To make a stress test, the victim must roll a number of dice based on the system against a target number equal to the number of cumulative stress the system has taken. Only 1 success is necessary to avert system failure:
Cyberware gets a number of dice to resist based on it's grade: 1 for basic, 2 for alpha-grade, 3 for Beta-grade, and 5 for Delta-grade. Bioware is based on grade too: 1 die for cosmetic bioware, 2 for standard, and 4 for cultured. Attributes roll dice equal to half their natural value.
If cyberware fails, it does so in a manner of the GM's choosing: C2 decks malfunction, smartlinks give penalties instead, skillwires cause shaking and tremors, wired reflexes overload, becoming twitchy or cause feedback, cyberlimbs start moving on their own, internal air-tanks cease up or explode causing (number of hours of air left)S damage resisted by body only, etc. The effects are left up to the GM.
Bioware has specific levels of damage, similar to a condition monitor, each level causing a cumulatively bad effect. If bioware fails a stress test, it is considered at deadly stress. Some bioware simply stops working but causes numerous other problems based on it's previous level of stress. Example, Synthacardium: At light stress, 1 box, it causes headaches and migraines from high blood-pressure. At moderate stress, 3 boxes, it causes hypertension, for every athletics test made, roll 2d6 on a 2, a stroke occurs. At Serious stress, 6 boxes, the character has chest pains and is afflicted with a permanent light stun wound until the stress is fixed, at deadly stress, the implant fails and provides no bonuses.
Attribute failure can be any number of things, pulling muscles, twisting ankles, a migraine, disarrhythmia, reduced inhibitions, concussions, punctured lungs, broken bones, delerium, coma. These effects are up to the GM and can lead to some interesting situations. They should affect the specific attribute though.
Whenever ANY system takes 10 stress points, they automatically fail.
When any system fails, it must be fixed with surgery and will not heal naturally. Attribute and bioware stress heal over time naturally. Cyberware that hasn't failed can be fixed with routine maintenence. Some cyberware may require surgery to fix, an internal air-tank comes to mind...
This system is far more complicated than most GMs and players are willing to deal with, but it can be implemented fluently if the GM practices with enough imaginary scenarios to get the rules down pat.
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I know that the Move By Wire is always active, i was wondering if it would be possible 9or if it slisted in books) that you could get a trigger like with wired reflexes so its not always going so you have a bit more control over it and its side effects.
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i was also thinking about the fact that even a small pressurized contraption in the rib cage so close to lungs, heart, stomach, and so many other internal organs would do more damage then hours left in S damage.. even if it only has 20 minutes worth in it. first its exploding right by major vital organs with plenty of metal or ceramic or plastic shrapnel, with a full tank your gonna least be missing a lung and some ribs, or it could blow a hole into a vein or artery or some other such massive blood pumping vein, and if a small bubble of air can kill you imagine what that could do.
Next you also got shrapnel. with that you got your diaphram (isnt that what the muscle used to make the lungs pump air called?) stomach, lungs, heart, kidneys, and so forth right there.
Almost makes ya think could be turned into a micro bomb if someone wanted to, like a head popper, cept possibly bit messier and more painful where a cranial would be more effective....
im starting to realize why some of my players were really paranoid about getting cyber work done in game from people and corps they didnt know..
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Yeah, realistically I can't see anyone surviving long enough to matter once their internal air tank blew.
I actually envisage it blowing a major hole in your chest. As you say, this would probably sever numerous major arteries, and quite possibly cause irrevocable damage to the heart too.
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If cyberware fails, it does so in a manner of the GM's choosing: ..., internal air-tanks cease up or explode causing (number of hours of air left)S damage resisted by body only, etc. The effects are left up to the GM.
Well, there you go.
I personally think it would do more damage, but rules is rules :P
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Double-checked, it says it does 10S damage on a 1 from a 1d6 roll after taking Stress to check for a breach. Bone-lacing and internalized impact armor reduce the power. Nearby people are damaged as well lowering the power of the attack by 2 per meter in distance.
Notably, an air-tank can hold something besides air if a tracheal vent is installed. Then you can blast neuro-stun 6 out your throat-hole. However, you'd still need a way to prevent the gas from being breathed back in.
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hhmm.. Dual tank it.
Get one regular air tank, so after blasting the spray, can finish with burst of regular air to clear it out.
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Yeah.... So basicly if you have a charged air canister that takes a round, you go bye-bye. Pretty simple solution.
Gabriel
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i was wondering what all it would take to get a hit like that as well. What kinda roll the shooter would need to hit, or how badly some poor runner would have to roll to have it happen to him.
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Don't you guys watch Mythbusters?!?
On one episode they were testing the whether or not what happened in the move Jaws (shooting the swallowed oxygen tanks causes them to explode from the pressure).
In a nutshell: small calibre firearms bounce off of the tank, while large calibre rounds will make a hole and enough force comes out to move the tank. Needless to say it didn't explode, so they blew it up with C4.
I love that show!!
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Actually, i ALMOST saw that episode... but every damn time its on and gets to that part something happens keeping me from seeing it, family changing channel, tv glitch, or im out of the room for some reason or other.... rather annoying that..
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Hmmm... that's interesting- I haven't watched Mythbusters in a long time.
Actually, I would assume that an internal air tank would have some small amount of armoring, just to make just such an even less likely.
Of course, having your exit wound turn into a blowhole might be funny, too.
-kv
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ALright, this is my take on it. Judging by the picture in Cybertechnology, the canister replaces the bottom lobe of one lung, with a tube running to an air intake/filling point. So, if youwer eto take a called shot to lower rib area, I would give a 50/50 chance of nailing the tank. If it were to happen and the sammie was to take Serious Damage or higher, I would rule that he has to make an unaugmented Body (6) roll or take a medium hit from the escaping air.
Assuming this is the only damage the cobber has taken, it will knock him to 9 boxes of damage on one shot. No pretty (and colorful) explosin, but enough to put him down on the ground. Of course, if you have an explosive or tracer round, well that's a different story.
Gabriel
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I think it also depends on whats in the air tank.
if it's just regular air, it's probibly no big deal. if it's pure O2, or some other highly flamable concoction, then there could be an explosion.
and i think that letting almost any called shot hit the air-tank is a bit high in the probibility range.
the remaining lung is quite a bit larger... the air tank looks to be about the size of a heart. and remember, any bullet has got to go through the armor that the target is wearing (what runner goes bare chested into battle thease days?) the skin, the ribcage, and then, it's got to hit the tank at a perfect angle. if it's a bit off, it'll just richoshea arround some more.
for color, you could probibly have it 'cook off' like explosive rounds if they ran through a burning building, and took a bunch of dammage from heat or something, but inorder for the cyberwear to fail, it's got to take almost lethal dammage in and of it's self. (a single wound inflicting S+ dammage in a single shot is what normally qualifies for a body resistance test to see if anything important was broken right?)
so, they'd have to take S dammage from fire / gun / whatever before it'd probibly exmplode. (at that point, an additional S in dammage from an exploding airtank is just mean)
I'd probibly leave this more as flavor text on recently killed PC's / NPC's. You shoot them, and they die horribly in that tragic car wreck... and then... explode! oops... must have cooked off the air tank.
or let the PC's use it as a goodbye 'frag you too' when they buy the farm, and want to go out with some style.
most cyberwear has it's own monitoring devices, if it deteced a rapid pressure loss, it could probibly open up the dump/refill vent and push out whatever was inside in a less destructive manner than exploding. (again, that's mostly dependant upon whats in the tank... if you take the S dammage from fire, and are in a burning building, having your Hydrogen tank dump it's contents out the drop valve isn't going to help much. you'd have just installed a one shot flame thrower into your neck.)
*shrug* that's my thoughts on the subject.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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A saftey valve isn't going to be able to compensate for a bullet hole in any kind of effective manner. And the contents of the air tank wouldn't really be much of an issue unless you survived the sudden decompression which just blew part of your diaphram, pancrease, and lung out of a bullet's entrance hole. Of coure if you DID survive, then yeah, pure O2 might be a bit of a problem.
Gabriel
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The tank wouldn't literally "explode" rather, it would decompress, causing all sorts of nasty pressure situations inside your body. That's why it's not a Deadly wound but a Serious one.
So, let's say Gryphon has a spare air-tank for when Mitsuhama decides to field-test some Green Ring-3. On his run, he takes a bullet for moderate damage and only rolls 1,2,2,2,1 on his damage resistance test. He takes one wound effect. Rolling a 2 on his 1d6, the GM finds Gryphon takes a cybersystem hit. Getting another 1 to roll for essence slot, Gryphon takes a hit on his 1 essence point of cyberware. His tank is hit, and takes Stress. The GM rolls a 6 and Gryphon takes 3 stress. Rolling for his stress test, Gryphon rolls 1 die (basic air-tank) and gets a 2 (Gryphon has really bad luck) The tank fails and breaches causing decompression dealing 10S damage. Rolling only his body, 3, Gryphon rolls a 4, 3, 4. 0 successes and he also takes 2 more wound effects, a bioware system and an attribute wound effect.
Knew a guy who had one of those tanks filled with napalm... I miss him...
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I once knew a guy who filled his with Seven-7.
Once.
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Yeah, that's not really a repeat offense, to fill your own air tank with deadly toxic gasses and weapons. Usually the first time is also the last time, then it's DIRTNAP TIME!
-kv
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Whatever happened to filling an air tank with AIR???? Has anyone ever read Wolf and Raven? That extra air can come in really handy. Just ask Kid Stealth.
Gabriel
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See, the thing I'm thinking about though is this... most wounds are taken by bullets, so let's assume it's a shot that hit the tank.
Bullet goes INTO the person... making a hole all the way through to the air tank... that hole would line up... more or less, with the bullet hole...
so, unless the tank actually EXPLODED, wouldn't all the air just leak out the hole already made by the bullet? so the bullet would go in, and a stream of compressed air would go out? now, I'm not saying that would be super comfortable, but opposed to blowing your lungs out of your mouth, and your liver out your ass, isn't that more probible? the path of least resistance?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Isn't the body basically layers of tissue, so when you move different layers move in different ways?
For example, the outer layer is obviously skin. Skin can stretch, but generally stays in the same spot. The second layer is muscle, muscles can flex, stretch and contract. The muscle around your chest area for example will stretch a lot if you twist your torso to the farthest possible. Under that is your skeleton, which moves as you move, but isn't flexible at all (or at least much). Under that you have your organs, which are almost always moving but always in the same place (your lungs expand and contract, your heart beats, your stomach will expand or contract depending on what you ate or lack thereof.
Basically I think there's far too many things going on for a bullet hole to stay where it is perfectly. Granted whatever happens it's going to be pretty close but it's never going to be a perfect tunnel to the cyber air tank.
Though, the air in the tank is pressurized, so theoretically if punctured the pressure would force whatever gas inside the tank (be it oxygen or something not so nice) out through the path of least resistance as Ruski said. I don't think it would come spraying out of the hole but more along the lines of a large amount leaking out.
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Even if it was close, i think the air would go out the hole. if you twist arround so that the hole is kinda 'pinched' off, the amount of pressure on the path of the hole would probibly be less than the path of resistance out through anywhere else.
also, if you twist arround; so that the air builds up inside your ribcage, wouldn't that amount of time be enough for the dump-valve to start working it's magic, releaving preaaure inside the tank, and the newly formed holding cell aka, your ribcage? sure, it would be hard to breate for a bit while your lungs were crushed from the inside, but I don't see it breaching out anywhere explosion style.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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I'd have to agree with Ruski's first idea- the air would blow out the exit wound (or entry wound, assuming the bullet didn't penetrate the tank entirely), and you wouldn't have to deal with anything more than an air-hose blowing your blood and coming out of the wound at 500psi.
-kv
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still would be massive blood loss from the air flow. the natural coagulants don't work when traveling at 200 feet pr second. and there could be surrounding tissue dammage from any number of things...
you could have chips of bone or metal tear their way back out the hole (the bullet could go in, and get pushed back out) increasing the size of the hole, there could be tissue laserations from the stress of being 'blown by' at that speed (allong a point that has already 'ripped' from the bullet entry wound) and there is a possibliity of other tissue dammage from air being forced between the diffrent layers and buffeting some of the diffrent orgins it came in contact with.
all and all it could create a 'serious' wound, even with just an exit vent of air.
really though; is that what cyberwear falure is about?
if someone has a cyber-limb, do we make it explode if it get's a cyberwear failure? if someone has cyberwear failure in a cyber eye, do we do anything to them other than blind them?
personally; i think a more 'fair' solution would be to just shut down the air-tank. you can add flavor text of it shooting a stream of air out of their ribcage if you want to, but it's not really an un-ballancing peace of tech, if you wanted to really be mean, you could 'lock it down' so that it compleatly shut down, and the one lung it was set to pump into is shut down as well; so they are down to one lung.
you could say that the bullet pinched the air return valve, so it dosn't work any more, or it busted off the pressure regulator, so it can't activate / deactivate.
giving something so deadly for such a low peace of tech as an additional S wound (on top of whatever S wound it took to take the dammage in the first place) seems, to me, to be over-kill.
I'd rather give cancer to the guy who's destroying game ballance for his move-by-wire level 4 system. where's the chance of that getting hit and his brain exploding?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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I see what your saying, but when a cyber arm gets hit it doent explode or such because it doesnt have a bunch of gas under pressure, cyber eye dont explode enless it has something to make it go boom in it.
in comparison an eye and arm are lot less to ad in then having to have your ribs cracked open and a chunk of your lung switched out. Your putting a small compressed canister of air right in a place that nature surrounded by chunks of bone for the purpose of protecting. Im not saying it should blow at the slightest knick, i know that you dont build those things out of paper mache, but some the guns people pack today are used to take down Large angry trolls with natural dermal plating in addition to what ever cyber parts they bought. Not to mention armor.
There isnt really a "balance" when you cut out a chunk of yourself and shove in nice shiny metal peice in its place. Hence essence loss. Its just like a cranial bomb, they use radio waves or specific words to set them off, but doing that also means that someone could say said word without even knowing what its gonna do and random radio waves could set them off. and as for unbalancing when playing its a risk your taking. if you wanted to go with no armor thats your choice, if you want to run around with a bandoleer of grenades, they snag. its called taking a risk.
And im gonna cut it now caus eim pretty sure i've gone totally into the domain of wild Tangent.
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Well, it's still good information. Discussions like this are a lot more on topic than a lot of other threads.
but if it's done, it's done.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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I simply ment wild tangent on my last post... kinda picked up that habit from Job Corp.. Had one guy who wanted to braid Nylon Sinew to make a rope to climb with, guy who owned it kinda went... Angry and loud and screamed t top of his lungs about how thats a stupid idea, and ended up on the topic of that guy being the reason they put "Caution, Hot" on coffee cups.
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You know, about the "path of least resistance" thing, you have to realize that a bullet rarely travels straight through a body. This is especially true of smaller caliber rounds. When a bullet enters the body, it encounters all manner of different densities which alter its path of travel. The bullet can "bounce" around inside of a person and create all kinds of havoc. Now, the larger the caliber and the faster the round, the less the bullet is likely to bounce, but you will almost always have a bit of deflection. Now when you talk about the rib cage, armor, and the tank itself, you have to think that there will be no straight line path for the escaping gas to pass out of. So the gas will force its way out through the general path of the bullet, but in doing so will distort the path greatly because of the gas' pressurized state. It would be like putting a piece of cooked noodle, surrounded by Jell-O, and coated in a few layers limp lettuce onto the end of a balloon-blowing-up helium tank and watching it freak out and wiggle when you pressurize it. Since the piece of tech in question is pressurize, you get the really nasty failure, not because it has failed, but because of the WAY it has to fail. And pressure valves will only dump product when the pressure gets too high, not when it starts to rapidly dump. OF course, I'm sure you could design one for that purpose, but it's not going to help when the gas is escaping through a hole that the valve doesn't regulate.
Gabriel
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There!! *points to the last post* THats kinda what i was trying to say earlier, Frak.. i thought i had a point but just lost it.. not quite what i was trying to say but general idea.
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okay, you have a point; but here's what I'm saying:
you carry gernades... where are the game mechanics for getting shot while carrying gernades; and having them go off? that'd be more likely than rupturing your air tank, and a PC with gernades is more un-ballancing to the game than a PC with an air-tank...
and; as for the bullet bouncing arround inside of people, I know about that, but inorder to actually breach a tank (or wrack-up a S wound) it would probibly have to be a pretty high-calibur & hig-velocity type of round. most people with a streetline special have trouble doing much more than L dammage, and that's the type of round that's just going to richochet arround.
and the high calibur, high capacity type of round, would probibly make a pretty straight hole.
-RuskiFace the pirate
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Same time a smaller tank like those are going to be easier to puncture then a full sized one because its not going to have as much metal arround it, you dont put as much chrome around a small tank as you do a big one other wise its just excess and adds unneeded weight.
and as for the unbalancing thing, Drek Happens.
If you want to put a small compressor in your chest, theres chance its going to get hit and go, if you strap a grenade to your chest theres a chance its going to get hit, or snag something and the pin get pulled (provided you've removed all the other safety locks)
Things arent always balanced. if someone wanted they could take a street line special and pratice so much with it they could pop a person easily with it because their skill is so high and they got so much cyber equiped or what ever. Things arent always balanced and this is one of those things. its a risk your taking by putting a chunk of metal containing about 20 minutes worth of breathable air, some knockout gas, napalm, or what ever else you want to stuff in into your chest when your fighting people who carry guns used to punch through armor and rib cages, and on occassion armored rib cages. Balance doesnt always come into play while playing. So what fragger A has a grenade, so what Fragger B has an air tank in his lungs. THey are both taking their own risks with this equipment. you cant buy something and expect it to always function perfectly and be undamaged in a fire fight.
And as for the tank simply dumping if hit, enless it has a port along the ribs or such it mostly likely is going to dump straight into the lungs and try to force its way out of the mouth or nose, which can be pretty messy and almost just as deadly enless you know to open your mouth, throat, and nose all at once as soon as the bullet hits just in case.
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Also, i should say i dont expect the tank to go cause some punk with a pocket derringer nailed you in just the right place. but same time its kinda of rediculous... ridiculas... ..... what ever the heck word im thinking of:P to think that if you get nailed by a bullet that can punch through you and several other people that if it hits the tank its going to do nothing more then go "oops! i've been hit. better turn off!" and not work till you get a tech to look at it and fix it,
Best laid plans of Mice and Men.
Expect the Worse,
What ever can go wrong will go wrong,
all of these things are runners have to expect while running, and if you give something to go wrong you have to expect it to happen. a simple way to prevent it from happening is some good armor over your chest, heck, even add a plate right over where the tank sits, some good level bone lacing or whatever. Make them think, "ok.. what can go wrong with this little peice of metal". its the ST/DM/guy who runs stuff job to throw curves at people to make them think, to think of what happens when character starts getting some bad luck. im not saying its their job to do all they can to slag the character, but make them think on their toes, and plan ahead, behind, left, right, up, down, and on every other axis there is. again Drek Happens. Happens in every day life, and especially with dice i've found. So make them think twice before they just grab a peice of cyber for no reason, or buy a grenade, or a heavy gun that could be used to shoot down the MIR space station. or even if they decide, "i dont need armor" or "one clip should last me the run"
Thats something that the people i ran the FF game with liked, i had them keep on their toes and think (it also kept idiots out of the game as well, something i liked, players liked having new ones join cause as the old saying goes, "You only have to outrun one person" and if said person is a troll with enough metal in them they make the black top of the roads creek with each step (seriously, some guy managed to have his character to the point where he had about 0.01 essence left) they make a handy sheild (reduced speed due to weight kept him in behind the group, which he was fine with, kept bragging he saved their asses when he was one who triggered most alarms, my fave was when stars finally IDed the guy and came ready with HMG's mounted on vechiles(sp?))
Not to say that these same people had complaints about how i ran things, i'll admit i get a bit excess in my "making them think ahead" and what not, but lotta them liked their chars having to actually work to get ahead.
....... Tangent detected, shutting down.
heh, so theres my words for now... i'll post more when i remember what i was writing about and what my point was...
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Well, as a game system; I'm just saying in the intrest of keeping it ballanced.
and for gernades; there's no built in game mechanics for walking arround with a backpack full of gernades and having one cook off if you get hit. that was my point.
you could be wearing them as ear-rings, there's not a 'equipment chance to be hit' unless the GM makes up some half-assed on the spot rule, but they went to elaborate lengths to make sure they could hit the air-tank inside you and have it explode.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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First off.. i'd think grenade earrings might hurt a little.. thats good bit of weight to be hanging off the ears..
and hell, if your dumb enough to hang grenades off your ears i'd say they deserve to be viable targets.. though been so long since played or really checked over i'm not sure on called shot rules.. and again, not saying the tank should blow cause it got knicked, nor should grenades, if its hit with a normal bullet from a fair distance away so theres nothing on it to ignite the powder or such theres little chance the grenade is actually going to blow, maybe tear apart and spray person with contents, possibly pull an ear off, or a large chunk.
and again my original thing was, "What would it take to make one blow, what kind of roll" which was answered.
and again, to keeping things balanced, its always gonna be unbalanced. Some players are going to do better then others cause they know how to effectivly do things while others sit on their thumbs and twiddle their arses. and Runners have to go against Corp Security systems, guards, and what ever else, if it was balanced there wouldnt be much thrill, or at least as much.
Hell, i hate getting cacked when i play, but i have more fun when im playing the underdog so to speak than when im on equal grounds. and in the end, Balance comes from the players and how they play. The big Cthulu thing i was talking about, those creatures are hard to kill, but doesnt make them impossible, throw in a gun monkey and watch them waste their ammo giving said creature only a few scratches. Throw in some one who thinks and they might try and capture one the creatures, contain, and find out what works best on it.
One char could have enough arms and armor to take on Stars while going on a run, but be as useful as a peice of paper as armor in a fight because they dont know to do anything more then "duh.. i shoot at them" (had one guy say that, though the Duh was the sarcastic sort) and shooting at them did nothing. Smart player looked around and spotted steam pipe, switched to some AP rounds for her pistol, pumped a couple rounds in, openned it up and several others and smoked them with steam (really high pressure and high temp steam can cut through lotta stuff easily), and even if not you still got some superheated gas/liquid spraying allaround you, and enless you got a complete enclosure suit with life support and such keeping you seperate from outside, your fragged.
... Frak. not only a tangent that time, but i do beleive i started ranting as well... well, i hope someone can pick something useful or understandable out of all of that...
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AHEM!
Grenades themselves do not explode from ballistic damage. They explode as a result of incendiary or electrical damage, this includes: Fireballs, Incendiary Grenades, Fire Elementals, Lightning bolts, Taser Fire, etc. Roll 2d6 in the case of incendiary damage to determine if the attack causes "secondary damage" If the wound dealt primarily is only Light, do not check for secondary damage, subtract 4 from the result if the attack does Moderate damage, 2 if Serious, and use the actual result if the damage is Deadly. If the number rolled is greater than the object resistance rating of the object in question then the object ignites. Grenades and ammunition have an Object Resistance rating of 5 or 6. High-tech detonators and smart-mines have an Object resistance of 7 or higher. C4 is completely stable and does not explode from incendiary damage. If taking electrical damage, roll 1d6. On a result of 1, C4, C8, and C12 hit the right voltage and KABOOM! Clothes and gear that start on fire deal damage every turn until they are put out. (Expend A Free action to Drop prone and another complex action to roll around and expend combat pool against a target number equal to the Power of the recurring flame damage. Every success further reduces the power until the power is 0. The flames gain 2 power every turn left blazing.)
To handle exlosions at ground zero use the optional explosives rules: Get the distance to the target(s) subtracting power based on the radius, then roll half the leftover power as "attack dice" against a target number of 4. Every two successes stages the damage up one level.
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Or for brevities sake, if you get hit in the granade, you blow up. Because let's face it, a grenade, ANY GRENADE, going off while strapped to your chest is going to kill you. That's all there is to it.
Gabriel
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Yea. Gernades are fun.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Well, that's the effect from splash damage. If you make a called shot at a grenade and hit it, then there's still a chance it might not explode. Keep in mind, that grenades aren't designed to blow up without their detonator starting it. Of course, if you have some WWII era grenades, you deserve to have them blow up in your face. Spring for some of those new Ares PE or IPE explosives; they're more stable anyway.
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mostly at that point, it's up to the GM to take care of the PC who feels the need to carry a backpack filled with old gernades through the burning warehouse.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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One other fun thing about old grenades, having lots of friends in diffrent branches of the military they explained Grenade Training, one of these being Cooking off grenades.
Most grenades have a 4-5 second fuse before they blow, but on some ther eis a small problem, if a grenade is shook up to much it can disrupt the fuse, causing it to either gain time before it blows, Or, take time away from the fuse. Commonly a hated thing about training as most have told me.. Yet another reason to spring that little extra nuyen for some newer grenades...
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I had a friend who went through basic.
aparently they have you throw dummy gernades for like three days, letting everyone get use to pulling the pin and pitching them, makeing sure they don't drop them, that the get enough distance, etc.
aparently when they switch to live gernades, EVERYONE gains 10 yards on their best throw.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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hehe, i cant imagine why.....
ALso, while i was blowing steam earlier in the back yard in my favorite way, a paintball gun, i had a rather nasty idea... There are plenty of fast acting contact poisons out there in the SR verse...... how hard would it be to fill a paintball with a lethal amount and use that to splat someone.. Literally. In addition, imagine how long it would take for people to really figure out whats going on. get something thats gonna take a while to kick in with little signs of being dosed, then suddenly the person keels over later without warning. Today's paintballs arent that impressive for a long range strike on a person, but im sure SR has enough tech to make a modern day paintball gun look like little more then a plastic straw blow gun with a crack in the side..
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Best thing is, it doesn't even have to normally be a contact poison. DMSO get's it through the skin for you. Assuming it's not positively huge molecules.
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Also, if you can hit some bare Actual skin, (nail them in fore head, arm, or where ever) a paintball can actually open them up a bit and get them bleeding so the poison can get into the body course, if they have armor on, or even just some decent leathers, not gonna have much luck..
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They have this tech in the game. I use it as my primary weapon, with my secondary weapon being a Predator II with APDS ammo. The thing is, I don't like killing anyone for no good reason. Like security guards are going to be THAT dedicated to they're corp or mall or Stuffer Shack. These slags are just rying to get by same as me, and they don't deserve to die. So, get yourself and Ares Super Squirt II (Man and Machine under the chmical section) or get yourself some gell rounds filled with your toxic de jour. The Super Squirt has limited range, but the DMSO make sure your chemicals are absorbed nice and fast. I tend to mix mine with Gamm Scopolomine, which acts as a paralytic and breaks down into a truth agent. You paralyze someone, the follw it up with a tranq patch when the action dies down and when he comes to, he wants to tell you everything he knows.
Gotta love the shadows.
Gabriel
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Nice, but one thing bout a paintball gun is how descrete(sp?) it is, no need for silencer, ammo is cheap, and lot of stores can refill a CO2 for cheap. Plus when someone gets nailed with a paintball they freak, but not in the manor of freak you get with a gel bullet or other guns like that. Ya, they may not take kindly and such, but not many will suspect getting poisoned from a paintball. Would make fairly good quiet hit and last for a while before someone catches on. Course, might be something you want to keep quiet yourself, cause who wants to be known for Gacking people with a paintball gun....
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Training rifles in 2050+ use paint-capsules which can be replaced with whatever you need. These rifles are know as the Ares ELD-AR, which can fire paint-rounds at fully automatic speeds. Just be careful and keep your weapon in tip-top shape. It can be one thing to be messy from paint, it's another thing to have your gun chop a capsule and you find your self over-dosing on a relatively weak compound.
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Bingo. You know, Retread, I thought about getting and Eldar rifle once. But then I thought about how much I would have to train to get a decent Assult Rifle rating, and I just said frag it.
Gabriel
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That's the one gripe I have about the rules:
What is the real difference between a Rifles skill and an Assault Rifles skill? Rifles and Shotguns (slug shot)?
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isn't that fixed in the SR4 version? they have skill groups like 'rifle' where you get all thoes skillsets.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Dunno, is it?
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pretty sure it is.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Now see, I could see making that change. But as of actual game-play examples, the only time I have combined catagories is when I use B/R skills like B/R Firearms, or B/R Cars/Vans/Trucks. Let's be honest here, fixxing an engine is fixxing an engine when you are dealing witht hings like this. The only real difference comes in when you are dealing with "exotic" vehicles like blimps, t-birds, planes and the like.
Gabriel
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well, this is just more of the same; only it's game legal.
it takes more points to get a group, rather than a particular individual weapon type.
so, you can pay 3 points, to get a 'shotgun' of 3, or you can pay 6 points, to get an 'area effect cone projectile weapons group' of 3, that includes shotguns, squirt weapons, and uh... some other... oh, sonic blast weapons.
it's like, buy two; get one free.
after that you can antee-up on the individual skills to get them to 4 and beyond, or pay the big bucks and get the whole group to go forward; and that group is just one I made up right now, but there are real ones out there. they generally have 3-4 diffrent weapons in each group, and they cost twice as much as regular skills.
I think it works good.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Sounds like a good mechanic to me, actually, although I wouldn't have doubled it. One and a half, maybe, but not doubled.
Gabriel
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perhaps it is one and a half. I only made the one PC, and even he was only halfway done before I had to go do something else.
I think there are a couple of groups that are a bit larger, where you get almost six skills... or wait... was there two types of groups? tight groups and broad groups?
...
actually; yea, I think there was two types of groups. and lots of over-lap.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Gabe, Car B/R applies to trucks, vans and cars already. Trucks are considered a higher body rating and larger version of a "Car" catergory and receive a vehicle score penalty.
There's already a "Spray Weapons" skill that applies to squirt weapons (I believe, it might me pistols/rifles)
Should probably just keep the regular distinction including the B/R skills since it evens up skill sets (even if it doesn't make sense)
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Good point.
Gabriel
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I remember back in Ye Olde Shadowrunne when there was a "Firearms" skill which made you God.
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I wish I had that skill.
-RuskiFace the Pirate God
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Yeah, but the specialisation rules were a bit crappy in that version. I like the way it is now, although I do tend to compress things a bit. SMG, Assult Rifle, and Rifle all go into one catagory.
Gabriel
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i usually throw smg into it's own catagory, but the other rifles all go in together for me too.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
squeeze the trigger... don't pull it.
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SMG is a bit iffy, considering that it applies to Machine Pistols as well as two-handers like the MP-5
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at least the recoil is similar.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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My 2 cents on the gun skills thing.. and not to make it sound like insulting anybodys intelligence, just kinda listing my experience (its fun having gun freaks for friends.. especially when you get to shoot a perfect condition pre-ban tommy gun, and a 50 cal rifle.. the bruise isnt much fun though..)
I cant really see SMG being stuck in with Rifles, they are more compact, generally use lighter rounds and useable one handed, and general shooting style is "spray and pray" because the shorter barrels dont generally give a good aiming accuracy..
Even an Assault rifle is good bit diffrent then your average rifle. They tend to be automatic leaning towards spraying bullets while aiming some, but even then your not aiming as carefully
Rifles are made for aiming, usually bolt action, pump, lever, ect, some semi auto but that tends to take away from the accuracy factor. They use big bullets that spin nice and clean for a good accurate shot that can do some good damage even to armored targets generally by putting the holes in the place where armor isnt to thick.
and a Shotgun.. same shape and all as a rifle generally, but fires nothing like a rifle, even if you use slugs.. Pellet and buck shots best used for light armored targets at close range in causing a good heavy spread of damage over the body, and a Slug... well.. then your just trying to make a REALLY big hole in them, and the heavier the slug the harder it hits, the gun against your shoulder and against them..
One nasty thing in one game i saw and wasnt sure if it would work was a Copper slug, not a solid one, was mainly done like a shaped charge, didnt have the explosives but the force of the shot and impact on target alone was nough to splatter most things pretty well and peirce armor.. Anybody know if that would work well, or would copper be to hard or to soft for the gun to shoot properly?
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copper won't work well. it's too light.
with slugs, it's all about density, the heavyer the slug, the more velocity it gains by going fast. lighter metals (copper, steel, titanium, silver) don't do as much dammage as good ol' heavy lead.
however, depleated uranium; at about four times the weight of lead, works quite well. Gold would also work well, but be quite expencive.
there is some presicence to have 'hollowpoint' rounds, constructed by dual-core slugs, where there's a heavy lead exterier, and a harder copper center, but they typically only work on soft targets.
-RuskIFace the Pirate
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*nods* what i thought.. though if you could get someone up close, like with a sawn off, it still might do some good ouching...
Nother nasty idea.. what about lead (or some other heavy metal) slug with mercury core..? a normal bullet is pretty nasty, what would something that sized do?
My knowledge is kinda just gun based.. ammo isnt something studied much on.. Friend was a major gun freak, literally, and i 100 percent bull drek you not, could name most guns just by hearing it shot, not what caliber or what not, but the actual gun, or least the closest model to. Kinda creepy.. we used to sit in high school library and read every book on guns we could find.
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Mercury filled rounds would replicate, on a much smaller scale, the effects of buckshot when the bullet hits the target. The rounds have to be hollow-point, or just plane hollow, and will mushroom when they hit the target, causing normal damage. The mercury inside the round will continue, however, and will spred out in a cone. The density of the mercury will force it into small globules as it spreads, not a mist. As the little dropplets of mercury continue, they spread out like buckshot and keep going. When they DO stop, they will posions anyone who they stopped in, regardless of wether or not they kill him outright.
Gabriel
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yea. it's pretty much impossible to get all the mercury out of the shotwound. removing the poison effects will probibly require the use of a couple of blood transfusions, and even then; you'll probibly still end up mad as a hatter (literally)
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Now, Captain North, imagine filling that shell with liquid silver (I forget the compound here) and you might have yourself a REALLY bad day as a shapeshifting wolf.
Gabriel
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I knew a guy that used silver bullets filled with thermite; so that they would explode, and melt the silver on compact.
Fire+Silver+Melted silver = Bad day for ware-wolf
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Now, Captain North, imagine filling that shell with liquid silver (I forget the compound here) and you might have yourself a REALLY bad day as a shapeshifting wolf.
I've always adviced the use of Silver Nitrate (AgNO3 IIRC) for this purpose.
EDIT: Oops. It was supposed to be subscript, not superscript.
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Also a nice choice.
Wasn't there something bout the rounds breaking open when being fired with thoes though?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Would work good against Vamps to, least by 2nd edit rules.. 3rd edit doesnt even really seem to mention any critters of any sort so no clue if they still got weakness to silver.
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some do. it's mostly just a +1 on the dammage to resist level for them.
I.E.: a gun that normally did 6L would instead do 7L if it was made of silver, and the creature in question had an alergy.
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Now, Captain North, imagine filling that shell with liquid silver (I forget the compound here) and you might have yourself a REALLY bad day as a shapeshifting wolf.
I've always adviced the use of Silver Nitrate (AgNO3 IIRC) for this purpose.
EDIT: Oops. It was supposed to be subscript, not superscript.
Yep, that's the stuff I was thinking about. Thanks ROOTless.
Gabriel
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Shotguns and rifles might not fire the same effective round, but the point I was getting at is that a gun with a stock is aimed in single-shot mode relatively the same regardless of the round used. Recoil and range rules account for the "spray and pray" of SMGs and Assault rifles.
Anti-vehicle rounds are made out of a brass core that will blast through hardened armor, additionally they do vehicle damage which guarantees a raise in the effective damage level of the weapon used to fire them against a soft target by one level.
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*shrugs* all im saying is from what experience i've had they dont fire alike. you dont aim them the same, or even really "shoot" the same.
Saying shooting a shotgun is just like shooting an SMG is kind of ridicouls... redictou... ... not right ;p
I think that the rules are good as is, least in 3rd edit, they are done so that if you dont have the skill you can fake it using a related skill at a penalty. to me this just kinda seems like you normally use a dagger to fight, but choose to switch it out for a spear one day despite having no training and expecting to use it just fine cause "they are about the same".. well.. maybe not quite like that.. but close to.
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Melee weapons are all relatively related (Where FASA got off claiming that a claymore is a polearm, I don't know) and I didn't think about defaulting. Still, I've fired both a rifle and a shotgun and they feel pretty much the same when firing (if they have the same sights) If you use a 410 with a bead sight it's gonna be different than with an iron-sight but the affect is still the same.
Conversely, you use the same Projectile weapons skill when working with a bow and with a slingshot even though neither aim the same, so there's a rub there.
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I think the claymore thing is largely just people not knowing the differance in how you use the weapon..
And while a shotgun and rifle are simliear, not all are, sawn offs, or even cut down models for urban combat (shortened barrel and pistol grip stock) isnt much like a rifle, and i'd figure for street runners that would be the more used model... so i guess i should have brought that up in my posts..
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Eh, well, there really is no "perfect" system, so it's probably better to stick to canon, neh?
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point.. oh well, was good discussion at least:3
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You guys really should look at tne new group system in SR4.
-RuskiFace the PIrate
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*HISS!*
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Melee weapons are all relatively related (Where FASA got off claiming that a claymore is a polearm, I don't know) and I didn't think about defaulting. Still, I've fired both a rifle and a shotgun and they feel pretty much the same when firing (if they have the same sights) If you use a 410 with a bead sight it's gonna be different than with an iron-sight but the affect is still the same.
Conversely, you use the same Projectile weapons skill when working with a bow and with a slingshot even though neither aim the same, so there's a rub there.
um try hitting a target with a shotgun at anything more than 100 yards is nigh impossible even if your annie oakly even if you have a scope on it and when you start shooting at things for avg rifle ranger say around 400 yards that shotgun slug aint going to have much engery left
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Dammit Mercy!!!! Now I'm picturing you in a little frilly dress with a cowboy hat and rifle. :o Why did you have to mention Annie Oakley???
Gabriel
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and that's why RANGE catagories are diffrent from dammage codes, and skill weapons.
Shotguns have their own range modifiers, similar to that of a heavy pistol.
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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Hee, Annie Oakley goblinizes into a troll...
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Annie Oakley goblinizes into Mercy. ;)
Gabriel
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how about Mercy Goblinizing into Annie?
-RuskiFace the Pirate
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shudder looks at the resdident spell slinger ok drop the pollymoph spell bub