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[Curris]

That'd be a way to go. I'd hate to get fragged by a mob of Watchers. What would the other ghosts think?

They'd die laughing. "That's Rushing Bull, he tangled with the Bugs in Chicago, and that's Silentman, he got shot up by gangers; Oh and that's Whizzy. Frelling Moron got himself scragged by some Watchy-whatsits puffballs. . . "

Seriously though, You can use watchers for bunches of stuff. Alarm clocks, mental post-it notes. . .

[Gabriel]

I have to disagree with your take on spirits, Retread. If spirits had no mind of their own, then they would never go free. You could never have the edge Spirit Affinity or the flaw Spirit Bane. All of these things, backed up by the literature of the SR novels, point to spirits having personality, and thus concioucness. And remember, you can also torque off a spirit to the point where it will attack you if it goes free. That means that it has a memory and feelings too.

All of this points to them being much more than a generic dice pool or list of accessable powers.

Gabriel

[ROOTless]

Unfortunatly he's (atleast partially) right.

Spirits do not have a choice wether to disobey commands or not.
They may however well resent it, which gets very nasty if they ever go free.

Atleast, that's how I recall it.

[Gabriel]

Ah, I was a bit unclear there. I know that once you summon them, they are bound until their services are discharged or they are dispelled or "destroyed" in combat. I was just trying to illustrate my opinion that they are none the less alive and sentient in a way we aren't entirely clear on.

Gabriel

[Curris]

I too agree. Spirits have spirit, a soul of some sorts. They can be made to do things like robots, but they think and feel, all the same.

[kv]

My understanding is this:
(I expect someone to correct me)

A spirit is the sum of the energy or the nature of a place- busy city streets, where 9-5ers trudge and wander to and from wageslave livings, are filled with the energy of those beings. The mage takes this energy, focuses it with his will, and summons a spirit, imprinted with his personality as well as the energy of the place it was summoned from.

Hence, forest, hearth and those spirits tend to be fairly free-willed, and urban city spirits (and the spirits of man) tend to be rather servitud...al.

I don't know how this affects anything, other than flavor, but that's how I understood it.

  -kv

[Gabriel]

Then that's how you should play it. After all, it wouldn't really affect game-play too much, and if it helps you use the rules, then go for it.

Oh, and wasn't it you, Retread, who came up with the idea of a Street Spirit???

Gabriel

[Retread]

I was talking about elementals, specifically. Their nature is proto-spiritual as their make up is of a distant creative plane. That is to say, they are very "basic" because they are a manifestation of building blocks for creation, while Nature spirits are the manifestation of the creation's existence. That is why there is a distinction between elementals land spirits of the elements. A mage creates a servant out of raw matter that really has little personality. What personality it has is drawn from the mage that summoned it. If that elemental goes free, it tends to emulate the nature of its summoner. This is not so for domain-based spirits whose personality is derived from psycho-sensitive properties of the mana from that which it is derived.

Elementals do not make terribly good conversationalists.

For reference: Spirits are all sapient mana-forms, this includes elementals, nature spirits, spirits of the elements, Loa, Invae (bug spirits), blood spirits, Shedim, Imps, etc.

[mercy]

while they may have to follow ordrs that dont mean they cant prevert thoose oders and do what you tell them to the letter of the oder not the intent

[Gabriel]

I was talking about elementals, specifically. Their nature is proto-spiritual as their make up is of a distant creative plane. That is to say, they are very "basic" because they are a manifestation of building blocks for creation, while Nature spirits are the manifestation of the creation's existence.

Well that makes sense, and brings up a good point: has anyone noticed how the rule book for SR3 uses "elemental" and "spirit" interchangably in some instances and not in others?? It can get a pretty confusing when you are reading about the special services that an elemental can render. I never could figure out if they were talking about only elementals or all spirits. It got a bit wierd.

And Mercy has a point, a spirit of any kind can get fed up and start playing "stupid retainer" with its master. If you pop into a crowded area and tell the elemental that you have been using as a portable spell pool (which causes them pain) to kill everyone in this room, the elemental may well start with its master.

Gabriel

PS - Has anyone ever used the Knowledge Skill "named spirits"? It's listed in the core book and I was wondering how you adjudicated (sp) it.

[Retread]

Depends on which form of rules you use. In third edition, when an elemental is used for spell pool. However, in first edition, you could buy successes with an elemental's permanent force, which additionally was VERY painful. They switched the rule around and made it so you could buy Drain test successes with an Ally spirit's permanent force which was also very painful, allowing the spirit's freedom would also allow vengeance for that pain. The Aid Sorcery ability that elemental's now have is free of that rule, the spirit's favor is just considered like a temporary one shot focus, when used up, the spirit disappears but can be called again from it's metaplane. It could be considered painful, but the 3rd edition core book never says it is one way or another.

The elemental success purchase was removed because it was terribly unbalancing. Buying a success on a spell pretty much guarantees that with enough bound fire elementals you could kill a dragon with one spell. 4 force 5 fire elementals all used for instant successes would guarantee that hitting a Great Dragon with a manabolt for 20 successes would surely kill that dragon because Dragon's have a Willpower of 9-12 meaning at least 8 successes would guarantee death, even at light damage. Very, very unbalancing.

[Gabriel]

See, it's that "elemental can be called back again" thing that confuses me. Does that mean that the elemntal still has favors to use and that you have to get it back before it can preform them, or does it mean that you have to do the entire summoning thing again, complete with summoning material and so on?

Gabriel

[ROOTless]

If the Elemental still owes favours, it can be called from it's home plane with (IIRC) a simple action (it may be a complex one, but I don't think so).

This is ofcourse off of memory, I'll have to check it.

[Gabriel]

Ok, that cleared it up. Thanks.

Gabriel

[ROOTless]

OK, now I found my book.
An Elemental can be allowed to leave for it's home metaplane.
Recalling it from there is an exclusive complex action, but any number of Elemenals of the same Element may be recalled with the same Complex Action.

Commanding the Elemental (if present) is now a simple action.

This is discussed p. 186-187, SR3, under the heading 'Binding Elementals'.