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Author Topic: Magic Rules  (Read 26547 times)

kv

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Magic Rules
« on: April 26, 2006, 11:38:12 PM »

OKay, I've been needing to start this thread for a while, but not really sure where to begin, so I've been putting it off.

Most of the runs I've been through up to this point (with my brothers Ruski and Dave) have been fairly high-tech and low-magic, which worked pretty well, because we'll all fairly high tech, and not to excited about magic.

Up until now. Recently I bought two copies of the 3rd Editon rulebook because I'm teaching my girlfirend and a group of friends to play Shadowrun. They all love it, but I have a feeling that this isn't exactly going to be the same runs I'm used to doing with my brothers. For instance, two of the new guys are already looking over the rules for mages.

So I need questions answered. They may seem basic or stupid, but I do need to understand them.

To start: How does casting and dispelling work?

It's my understanding that casting is sorcery (or spellcasting specalization) in dice, plus the spell level in dice, plus magic pool, with willpower and magic pool to resist.

What designates target numbers? Can you cast a Rating 4S Manabolt? Does a certain damage level rating have to have a certain power?

How does dispelling work? Is this just for active spells, or are you able to 'unweave' them as they're cast at you?

I'll have more soon enough, but I need to tap the magic of the minds here, so I can make sure I'm playing this right.

  -kv
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2006, 01:55:39 AM »

OK, I'm at 'work', and don't have my books with me, so this is all just on memory, and I may have to correct myself later.

To start: How does casting and dispelling work?

It's my understanding that casting is sorcery (or spellcasting specalization) in dice, plus the spell level in dice, plus magic pool, with willpower and magic pool to resist.

No. In some edition I think you used to roll (Force) dice, but in the third, it's:
Skill (Sorcery, possibly speciality) + dice from spell pool.
Resisting drain is Willpower + dice from spell pool.
Relevant Foci add to spell pool.

SR3 p. 182

Quote
What designates target numbers? Can you cast a Rating 4S Manabolt? Does a certain damage level rating have to have a certain power?
Target numbers are designated by each spell.
It's in the spell description. Often, it's 'Target (Attribute)'
So it's usually a good idea to use a manabolt against the sammies (often have low willpower), but a powerbolt against the decker (Low body anyone?)
If it's resisted, it's resisted using the same attribute that's generating the target number.
You can (in SR3) freely pick your Force up to a max of the Force you learned the spell at. A 4S manabolt is a nice tool. Remember that combat spells ignore armour.

SR3 p. 180-183

Quote
How does dispelling work? Is this just for active spells, or are you able to 'unweave' them as they're cast at you?

I'll have to check that one for you, but I think it's only active spells. Remember that a magician can also attack and 'kill' a spell in astral space.

Yep, only active spells. SR3 p. 184.
"Unweaving 'em as they come" is Spell Defence.

Oh, and keep 'em comming, then I'll have a reason to refresh those bits.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 03:46:57 AM by ROOTless »
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kv

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2006, 09:07:13 AM »

How does Spell Defense work, then?
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Curris

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2006, 09:33:14 AM »

Also, you can only add dice from your sorcery skill (or specialization) up to your force rating of the spell. (In third edition).

For example. You know a Force 5 manabolt. You may choose to cast it at any force from 1-5. You will then have either 5 dice (the Force rating) or your Sorcery Skill rating (Whichever is lower). You add to that any spell pool dice used. If you had a force 2 spell, you could only roll 2 dice + spell pool.

This is on memory, (At school, books at home.)
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kv

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2006, 11:58:41 AM »

Ooh... that's an important feature to know.

For instance, I made a character with the idea Adept: The Path of the Mage, so he would be fast (like the rest of the group) and have magic. Of course, at this point, he has a bunch of force 2 spells, because I didn't understand the rating.

Time to go make edits.

Seriously, though, how does spell defense work?

  -kv
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2006, 02:19:38 PM »

Ooh... that's an important feature to know.

It is also not correct.
Spellcasting is covered on p. 181-182.
You get your Sorcery worth of dice (or less, see below), and may add no more dice from your spell pool than your sorcery score (used dice), as usual with dice pools.

Quote
Seriously, though, how does spell defense work?

SR3 p. 183

Sorcery dice (and/or dice from spellpool) may be allocated to spell defence.
Once a die has been used to cast a spell, it cannot be allocated to spell defence until your next action, and vica versa.
Subjects must be on the same plane (physical versus astral) as the magician, and within (Magic Attribute x 100 m) of the caster.
You may protect no more than your sorcery skill worth of people at any given time.
Most magicians will allocate dice to protect themselves.
When a protected person is targetted by a spell, the magician may decide how many spells to use to block the incomming spell (if forexample you expect to get hit by several spells that round). This does not require an action.
Any spell defence dice allocated are rolled against the force of the spell, and any successes generated are subtracted from the casting successes of the caster.
If this reduces the spell to 0 successes (or below threshold for certain manipulation spells), the spell fizzles. Allocating dice to spell defence is a free action. See p. 183

Some initiates may use Shielding, which is a matemagical technique, and very nice.
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2006, 02:27:08 PM »

How do the metamagic techniques work? Centering, Masking, and Shielding, specifically?

  -kv
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2006, 02:32:30 PM »

They're in Magic in the Shadows, and what you'll want to do is get that one and read it.
Or atleast parts of it.

The ultra abridged short-version of metamagic, focus on the mentioned techniques goes as...

To learn metamagic, one must initiate. This costs piles of Karma, and add an extra dimension to playing magicians. Literally.
One of the advantages of initiation is that one may learn a new metaagical technique each time.

Anchoring is a sort od delayed casting if spells, with trigger conditions.

Sorry, will be right back, gf was talking.
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2006, 03:08:31 PM »

OK, let's see:

Cleansing removes background count (astral pollution).

Divining is just what the word say. Usually not very effective though.

Invoking is used to summon great form spirits.

Possession er.. what the word says.

Quickening sustains a spell indefinently, without concentration by the magician.

Reflection a form of spell defence with tries to reflect the incomming spell back at the original caster.

certain other kinds of metamagic can be found in varios sourcebooks, they will not be mentioned here.

Centering is a pretty complex thing. Basically, the initiate uses some mundane skill (usually, but not always, an artistic or background skill) to focus more specifically on the magic. A special Skill called Centering is also used. This skill may never exceed the skill used to focus.

Centering can then be used to aither achieve extra successes on the casting roll (2 centering successes become 1 casting succes), but only if there's already a succes from normal casting.
A magician can center against drain, using the same 2-for-1 cost.
Or the initiate can Center Against Penalties, spending 2 successes on the centering roll to remove 1 point of T# penalty from any source. This may never bring the T# down below the base value, it only removes penalties.
Adepts have their own extra uses of centering, which I will ignore for the time being.

Masking is your friend. It is good. It basically allows you to alter your aura.
Non-initiates have no chance to assense through masking. Initiates may try (secret magic test against a T# equal to Essence/Magic/Force/whatever is appropriate, with a minimum number of successes required equal to the target's initiation grade, minus the viewer's initiation grade). Some spirirts (mainly free spirits with the masking power) may try as well, same check.
A masked amgician can appear (to astral senses) as a mundane,or a non-initiated magician.
An astrally percieving (and thus dual natured) magician can seem 'not astrally present'.
Masking can also hide the user'semotions (normally clearly visible in his/her aura).
An initiate using masking can also (as an exclusive action) use deliberate masking, maing it even harder to penetrate and view his/her true aura.
Either way, an amount of Force/rating of quickned spells/foci can also be masked, making them invisible from astral space, and thus untargettable.
Further foci can be hidden via deliberate masking.

shielding works a lot like spell defence, and these techniques may be used simltaneously, but not to protect the same individuals.
Dice allocated to Shielding are added to the Spell Resistance roll of the target (see SR3 p. 183). Thsi works against all spells, including elemental manipulations. Additionally, shielding increases the T# of any spell against the protected individual by +1/spell allocated, to a maximum of the initiate's initiation grade. Multiple initiates can stack their shielding.
MitS contains the full rules (p 70-79), and an example of shielding on p. 79
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Retread

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2006, 06:22:12 PM »

AHEM! Dice pools do not refresh until the next TURN, not next action. Therefore, if you're a mage with wired reflexes and you blow your entire spell pool on your first action you won't have any until initiative is rerolled on the next combat turn. Skills are not considered dice pools and refresh after every instance of their use.

Spell defense is like the opposite of casting the spell. The dice allocated can "attack" any spell cast at the targets with the allocated defense, this includes objects which aren't directly on a person. A magician can allocate sorcery and spell pool dice to any number of targets up to their Sorcery skill.  Allocating spell defense is a free action and therefore cannot be used before the magician's action. Meaning, if you're surprised and don't already have spell defense activated, tough krill-cookies.  Spell pool allocated to spell defense that is NOT used (ie. rolled) may be reallocated on the players next action. If it is used, the caster must wait until the next combat turn for their pool to be refreshed. Sorcery Dice used in spell defense are lost until the next action whence they may be reallocated (assumed to be automatic unless asked otherwise)

Let's use an example. Sparky the cybermage has a really crappy spell pool of 2 (cyberware and brain-damage do that to you) He was a good mage though, so his sorcery is 6. He can sacrifice his spell pool for spell defense. That leaves him with 2 dice to use until his next combat turn. If he instead allocated 2 sorcery dice, he'd have 2 dice to use to resist BETWEEN each action he gets. Meaning, if he gets 3 actions and gets hit with a spell every initiative pass, provided he allocates sorcery dice, he can resist with those two dice every time. However, if he had used spell pool he could only resist once with 2 dice or twice with 1 die each time. Depending on how the GM feels, spell defense, once declared is considered maintained until dropped.

Spells may also be multicast, however, doing so increases the drain target number by 2 per spell beyond the first for ALL spells cast. Sorcery and spell pool are split up according to the spell. At least one Sorcey die must be designated for each separate spell. Therefore, you can only cast a number of spells equal to your sorcery skill per complex action. Of course, casting 6 spells at once will raise your target number to resist drain by 12 and probably fail or do very little as a result of having very few dice.

Don't forget, when casting spells to include vision penalties. The rule of thumb is, if only part of the target is visual then there is a vision penalty. A target that cannot be seen cannot be cast upon. As a basis, in normal ranged combat, an enemy that is fired at (presuming you have a general idea of where the target is) but cannot be seen, adds a +8 target number. However, when using magic, the target must be seen, therefore, there is no blind fire penalty because it is impossible. If only 1 eighth or less of a target for a spell is seen, then a +7 target penalty is applied and every fraction thereof. To simplify you can say:

76-100% = +0
51-75% = +2
25-50% = +4
1-25% = +6
Blind = No target acquired

Other penalties add on as well. Visual penalties never go over +8. It's up to the GM if magic is possible when the visual penalty is +8.

 Don't forget, also that spells that are sustained by the magician add a +2 to all their target numbers (save Damage resistance tests, like drain or combat damage)
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Curris

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2006, 07:37:52 PM »

I believe that Rootless and Retread deserve a "Woot! Woot!" for that. . .

Nicely done. And thank you.
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2006, 12:05:39 AM »

AHEM! Dice pools do not refresh until the next TURN, not next action.
Ah yes, you are correct. My bad.
Except as... well, see below.

Quote
Therefore, if you're a mage with wired reflexes and you blow your entire spell pool on your first action you won't have any until initiative is rerolled on the next combat turn.

Well, a mage with wired reflexes has problems of his own.
An adept on the Magicians path would be in the same boat though.

Quote
Skills are not considered dice pools and refresh after every instance of their use.

You're absolutely right, except for in this specific case.
I thought it was pretty starnge too, but appearantly, one should think of sorcery as a sort of special 'pool' of dice that can be divided between casting and spell defence, and which refreshes at each action, not each turn (presumably because it's not really a dice pool, it just shares some of the behaviour).

Again though, I really recommend reading through pages 180-183 as the absolute bare minimum. But ofcourse, I buy rule-/sourcebooks to read them, don't I.
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2006, 02:42:31 PM »

Well, my problem is at the moment that I'm teaching a new group to play, at the same time that I'm trying to refresh my memory of rules I understand, at the same time learning new things. Magic in Shadowrun has never really been my strong suite.

In any case, this was all very helpful. I agree with Curris. A WOOT WOOT is definitely in order.

So the sorcery skill, as dice, refreshes every action, but sorcery dice allocated to spell defense only refresh every combat pass.

How do sustained spells work? I read they have a +2 for drain, but are there any other benefits/disadvantages? For instance, a sustained armor spell.

  -kv
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2006, 03:23:09 PM »

A sustained spell basically means that it keeps going until dropped.

Example: A mage casts the armor spell, at Force 6.

This adds 6 points of armor to each of impact and balistic rating.
This should not interfere with combat pool, but does stack with normal armor.

However, this benefit only sticks around while the spell is being maintained.
The caster can do this automatically, but while doing so suffers  a +2 to all T#s, including drain tests, per spell maintained. The only exception is damage resistance tests, which are unmodified. It does however include all casting rolls, driving checks and what-not.

Dropping maintainance of a spell is a free action (or perhaps absence of action).

If you intend to use the edge/flaw system, I strongly recommend spending 2 points on focused concentration, which reduces this penalty to +1 per spell maintained.

Permanent spells (such as healing spells) have to be maintained for a number of rounds before actually becomming permanent.

A sustaining focus sustains a spell for you, so that you don't have to concentrate on it (meaning you don't have to pay the T# penalty).

It is important though to remember that you do not take the maintainig penalty on the drain test for the spell itself when cast - that's already buildt in - only if you cast another spell while maintaining the first one.

Did this answer your question?
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2006, 06:28:18 AM »

Just remember, Kid_Vid, sustaining foci are your freinds! Get a few (or pick them off of dead bodies) and bond the to your mages/shamans and then have some fun. Of course, if your PC's start over-using them, they can get into Focus Addiction (loss of magic points) or have the foci attacked in astral combat (there goes time, money, and karma). As far as it goes, I would spend a night and read the magic section from begenning to end one night and DON'T SKIP AROUND!!!! That can lead to some really strange problems, and I know this from experience. You know how that book is arranged, so some very critical statements are hidden in unlikely places. Trust me, it is worth your time.

Also, don't think of Sorcery or Conjuring as pools, they are skills. Sorcery dice don't refresh because you never deplete them. Spell pool works ONLY for spell-related magic tests. Conjuring gets NO dice pools for either the act or fro draining excpet for Karma Pool and assorted foci if you have them.

And don't worry, magic is pretty easy to get down when it comes to the basics. I've found that it is very similar to the decking rules, so start drawing some parallells and make some notes. If you like, I have some cheat sheets you can have. Just let me know if you want them.

Gabriel
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