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Author Topic: Magic Rules  (Read 26627 times)

Gabriel

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2006, 05:38:51 AM »

That's actually a pretty interesting theory, although I don't think the Azzies were in possesion of his body. If they had been, then he would have probably battled on the astral until he could get into the teocali, and THEN bust out and reek havoc on those nasty bastards from down south. However, I can see him being REALLY torqued aout thier activities against spirits. Since Ghostwalker has "come back" to Denver (which many people believe to be his ancient territory) he has done A LOT of conjuring in general and his activities seem to revolve quite a lot around spirits in general.

Personally, I think he has a very strong link to Dunkelzahn, and not just because he came out of the rift. That could well be incidental. What I do remember is that when he popped up, almost all of the great dragons made media anouncements either welcoming him back, or warning him not to "act too hastily". Some even aluded to him being heir to Dunkelzahn, however THAT works in dragon society.

Also, when Ghostwalker came through the rift, a ton of other spirits did too. In fact, some cobbers say that they can trace the appearance of shedim spirits back to the opening of the rift. It looks like Ghostwalker may have let in a bunch of nastiness when he ripped his way out of astral space.

The question on my mind is, why did he have to rip his way out? And why use the rift to do it? Maybe the Azzies caught him napping and were able to actually imprison his essence on the astral plane somehow. Maybe Ghostwalker was supposed to wake up a ling time ago, and the Azzies were able to supress that and use the local mana to fule the teocalis. This is all just speculation, but who can say with something like this.

But I agree that his attack on the teocali, his very first act of agression in Denver, has to be significant. I don't know how, but I do have to agree with you, Retread, that there is more there than meets the eye.

Gabriel
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kv

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #166 on: June 12, 2006, 11:45:10 AM »

Interesting theory... I am intruiged.

Does anyone know more?

  -kv
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Retread

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2006, 03:26:21 PM »

Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn are brothers, hatched from the same brood of eggs.

Aztechnology's greater goals are shrouded in mystery. However, I'm very curious as to what was in the box that Dunklezahn bequeathed to Juan Atzcapotzalco in his will...
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ROOTless

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #168 on: June 13, 2006, 01:20:10 AM »

Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn are brothers, hatched from the same brood of eggs.
Source?

Quote
Aztechnology's greater goals are shrouded in mystery. However, I'm very curious as to what was in the box that Dunklezahn bequeathed to Juan Atzcapotzalco in his will...

Aren't we all?

However, we're now getting a tad off topic here people.
Kid, did you get what you needed, or do you have new questions?
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Gabriel

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #169 on: June 13, 2006, 05:22:07 AM »

However, I'm very curious as to what was in the box that Dunklezahn bequeathed to Juan Atzcapotzalco in his will...

His soul.

Gabriel
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Retread

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #170 on: June 13, 2006, 07:00:17 AM »

ROOTless

Read This

Page 60 or the entries for the Great Dragons Icewing and Mountainshadow.
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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #171 on: June 13, 2006, 07:55:07 AM »

Yes, I did.

I know of both Mountainshadow and Icewing.

However.
I'd really prefer if you would label SR/ED crossings as such. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge (and I admit to having read that .pdf only twice, and only having skimmed through the Dragons of the Sixth Age), the theory that Icewing and Ghostwalker are the same is only that, an unconfirmed theory.
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Gabriel

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #172 on: June 13, 2006, 10:10:19 AM »

Wouldn't it make more sense if Retread labeled the posts that WEREN'T SR/ED crossovers??? ;)

Gabriel
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Retread

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #173 on: June 13, 2006, 02:17:07 PM »

SNARL!


Regardless, if you look at the MO of both dragons they match the MO of Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn perfectly. It also explains the similarities between Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn, most specifically the physical similariities that the Children of the Dragon confused with as the ressurrected form of Dunklezahn.

Observe, both dragons are highly involved with metahumans, as both Icewing and Mountainshadow meddled greatly with "Name-givers" just as Dunklezahn and Icewing do. Dunklezahn is a charmer, whom often manipulates people under the guise of kindness. This is an ability he had developed over 7000 years ago during the Fourth World. Also note Ghostwalker's claim to many drakes, this most likely due to the fact that he created many more drakes than any other Great Dragon.

There is honestly no doubt in my mind that Ghostwalker is Icewing and Dunklezahn is Mountainshadow. Their implicit natures lay proof to a theory which substantiates the theory over any other. Unless that is of course, you have a counter-theory..?
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kv

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #174 on: June 13, 2006, 02:57:15 PM »

Are all of the dragons in that book present in Shadowrun age?

If so, which are which?

  -kv
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ROOTless

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #175 on: June 13, 2006, 03:03:00 PM »

My apologies, I think I just realized where our communication has failed.

I have my everyday life in (or on the border of) the scientific community (Physics, Semiconductor/ material sciences). In this context, it is inconceivable that you would make a statement like
Quote
Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn are brothers, hatched from the same brood of eggs.
without providing either a motivation for your statement, or a referance to someone else providing the motivation. It's the sort of thing that costs you grades in larger projects, or problems when publishng articles. When I see a statement like that, so very bold and and definate, I know there has to be valid reasoning immediately afterwards, or a referance as to why. So if my request for a source seemed aggresive, it was not meant that way.

Second of all, I don't need to refute your theory, or provide another one.
According to how I'm used to evaluating theories, you don't actually argue for your theory, simply state a possibility and declare it to be true unless proven false. This without any significant (not sure what you'd normally call it, a direct translation of what I'd usually call it would be 'burden of evidence').

What you deposit is conjecture at best, nothing that cannot be explained away with coincidences (or, more likely, given the context, some guy who really liked the idea of a Great Dragon with this secific sort of behaviour!). I agree that there are similarities, but because they are nothing more, I refuse to give them any more credence than that, especially because it leaves me with free-er hands in case I'm ever to use something like that as a plotline. My players might well suspect what you clearly believe, but because it is not proven or a matter of record, I can easily spin a twist on it, and make it different.
I can do so too ofcourse, even if it's been printed a thousand places with font-size 48 that they indeed are the one and same, but in that case I'd prefer not to, for certain reasons having to do mostly with the detail that so very many of the people I play with (though not all) score so amazingly highly on this.

But please note that
Quote
Their implicit natures lay proof to a theory which substantiates the theory over any other.
is not a valid proof, merely a point of argument, and that I need not present a counter theory to pick your theory apart, simply to point out that it is build on sand.
I will accept it as a possiblity, certainly even a strong one, assuming that the 2 worlds (Sr and ED) haven't been torn apart irrevocably with the end of FASA, but it is not the only possible solution.
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kv

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #176 on: June 13, 2006, 05:28:43 PM »

I think this points out a major difference between mathmatical (physical) theories, and political (mental) theories, because political theories (ones involving intent, possibilities, and people) often require a replacement theory.

You can argue with Marx's theories, whether or not people are inherently selfish, but political theories usually require a replacement theory.

People are inherently selfish- why?
People are not inherently selfish- why?

At least that's my take. Let's just write this all up to a difference of opinion, and get back to the thread topic at hand? Please?

  -kv
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Retread

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #177 on: June 13, 2006, 06:32:06 PM »

Well, let's see here, certain dragons in that book I am unaware of, specifically. However, anyone can logically guess that Luung and Lung, are the same dragon. The same is most likely true of Alamaise and Alamais.

I could wager that Nightsky was Nachtmeister, but we all know how that turned out. I do not know much of how Nachtmeister acted or his Modus Operandi so I cannot say for sure.

Earthroot may be Celedyr. I say this because Earthroot was patron of the Dwarves of Throal. Celedyr is called "Stone-Diver" by other Dragons. This is a weak conjecture, however.


Usun does not match the physical description of Lofwyr, but Dragons do change their colors as they age. Regardless, Usun's nature of Domination or destruction of the lesser races leads me to believe this. Otherwise, Usun might also be Aden or Sirrurg.

Vasdenjas is dead. The Dragons of Earthdawn sourcebook said he had no kin, therefore he can't be Dunklezahn. Read the quote later

Vestrivian is probably dead or has been morphed into a Horror-construct by The Despoiler of the Land. If Vestrivian is still in control of his mind, he is probably the named Dragon "Sirrurg"

The rest I have no idea.


ROOTless, let's lay this to rest, here's my proof:


Quote
Page 5 of "Survival of the Fittest" Paragraph 16, Column 2:
Ghostwalker drew himself up to his full height, nearly rearing up on his hind legs, in a formal Posture of Defiance, "I do Stone-Diver," he replied, "Though I honor and respect my brother's memory, I must question this most flagrant violation of our ways, just as I must question why it has been allowed to stand. From all I have seen and heard since my return I can assume the only reason is lack of courage."

This is said in reference to Dunklezahn's (Far-Scholar) bequest of the Jewel of Memory to Lofwyr (Gold-Master) by Ghostwalker (Doll-Maker)

Mountainshadow was the eldest of all Dragons during the time of Earthdawn. Icewing was the second eldest and is also the original creator of the magical formula to create the Drakes, a magical dragon-like construct to serve dragons, hence his Dragon name, "Doll-maker" Icewing is Ghostwalker. Ghostwalker is Dunklezahn's brother. Dunklezahn is Mountainshadow.
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ROOTless

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #178 on: June 14, 2006, 12:07:26 AM »

Now you make a convincing argument.
Good.
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Gabriel

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Re:Magic Rules
« Reply #179 on: June 14, 2006, 06:28:13 AM »

Well, now that ROOTless has be apeased, how about another question, Kid_Vid???

Gabriel
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