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[bull30548]

Okay so I have been contemplating running an SR4 game for my gaming group.  However my gaming group isn't really very good at SR.  So I am going to describe what they play and hopefully some of you can help me make sure that SR4 game stays near the fundamentals but is still fun.  I have a classic combat monster this guy likes answering most things with firepower (be it magical or material) however it is not always tactically sound or superior in some cases.  I have this niche guy he likes playing characters that are useful as long as they are in their comfort zone.  When I was playing I was the tactics guy I was the one that came up with strategies (that went out the window with the other party members involved) and ideas.  I had another player who knows how to RUN this guy been playing since first edition and has played or ran everything under the sun.  He is the best one of us in the group.  I have another that is a skill monkey but doesn't get that having a ton of skills doesn't necessarily being the best option.  A good example is when he ripped my head off for sending drones into a building for recon instead of letting his character do it.  Even though I pointed out the drones were faster and efficient but they were expendable as his character wasn't.  He just didn't like it.  Now I have 2 new players to RPG's who are interested but need to learn still.  And then my final member is just content to game, she doesn't optimize build or anything she just comes up with a concept and runs with it. 

So how do I do this without getting the overwhelming urge to kill them all or perhaps just myself?

[Ruski]

That is an excellent question!
The thing I like about Shadowrun: It's a detail rich environment where you can apply real-world modifiers with a physics engine that, while abstract, still conveys the 'feel' of real combat.
The thing I hate about Shadowrun: You've got to STUDDY 10 books worth of material before you can even hope to make a halfway decent PC build. and I'm not just talking about Min/Max~ing the stuffing our of a guy, just creating a guy that can survive 'back to the shack' without exploding himself in some painfully inefficient way.
So: what 'we' (the royal 'we' of "KidVid & I") did was this:
we did all the work.  The reason why people can enjoy say: Fallout: New Vegas, is because they don't have to roll to figure out the angle of attack, the drift vector of their round, and how many modifiers to apply to any given shot. they just mash the X button until muscle memory kicks in and the skill improves.
So: Make PC's for everyone.
"What?!?!! That's like 3 hours of work, each!"
Yea, it sucks; but the alternative is to talk ten people into buying $300 worth of books, spending three weeks reading them, and then still having builds that don't work quite like they hoped.
I can tell you right now it will be easier for you to just make the PC's for everyone the first time out.
Now: once they play a game or two, they can get into it; and once they WANT to make their own PC, you let them borrow your $300 worth of stolen PDF's (Keep the books close, or you'll never see them again) and help them do their weeks of study all on their own.
My recommendations for character builds, based on similar 'archtypes' of my real-life friends.
The thoughtless combat monster:
A street-sam, with a melee weapon. sword, axe, or cyber spurs.
Ramp up the reflexex, and put some reflex triggers on the appropriate sub-skill. He'll have 20 dice to tear people in half, and it'll make him happy.
and maybe, after he's kicked in a half-dozen doors and got hit with full-auto weapon's fire, he'll wise up a bit.
(it only took ... 12 years for my buddy to say: "You know: i'm dying a whole lot when I do that... I think my next guy will be something new...")
For you Niche guy, I would recommend drones. it would seem hacker would be the 'natural' choice (and as someone who once played a hacker IRL, and has created a hacker with every SR:x system out there I would be a proponent of it.) but no. Hackers are tough to play. you have to think outside the box, and you can't do that if you don't know where the walls of the box are. have a hacker NPC contact they can subcontract out their legwork with. A drone guy can be awesome in the captain's chair, but get him in the meat; and he's screwed.
For the guy who knows shadowrun: just let him make his own guy. he's already put in the weeks of effort, just work with him to make a story that ties in with your other PC's you are creating. hell, you could delegate a couple of builds to him if you wanted.
For skill boy: I recommend skill wires, and a high edge pool. for actual skills go with the B&E sampler pack, with a concentration in stealth and infiltration. He'll be usefull when you suddenly discover you need to know how to pilot a hovercraft, or dismantle a bomb, or whatever, and he can burn edge to still be useful in gunfights.
Your final member: Girlfriend/wife of one of your other players who's more there for the social interaction and concept is more important than math: You've got some options. Ask her what concept she'd like to run with (from her current arsenal of Marvel Movies or whatnot) and pick a pre-made from the middle of the book and give it to her with the heroin's name up top, or create a 'face' PC. it's been my experience that gals like to be able to talk their guy friends into anything (why else would she hang out with geeks like us? ;-)  ) and ultimately it's tough to go wrong there. (plus, your party will need someone to talk them out of the stupid situations that axe-boy gets you into.)

So, make your set of PC's, write up a little fan-fiction history for each of them, and present them as a 'squad' for your players.

If you need help with the builds, or the history, or the run, feel free to ask here. We've all got our own slightly different ways of running games; but I'm sure between all of us we should be able to cobble together something you can use.

-Ruski 

[bull30548]

Cool thanks for the advise.  I will consider it we actually had a similar idea of playing a game where we make characters then hand them to the left.  I am right now running a game called Pathfinder and I let my palyers go nuts for what they wanted to play (admittedly Pathfinder a lot more straightforward than SR4 is for character generation) but it worked out well I just run them around on a planet and let them have fun.  I like the system and the game but I am not much of a fantasy guy I like high tech or modern games more. 

These guys have a lot of experience with SR and we all loved it.  However as I said previously they pretty much suck at what I see is SR.  Which is the old adage 'Perfect run is nothing and no one knew you even did a run."  We are like the show 'Alias' we get the job done but it wasn't pretty or subtle.  Our team got such a reputation that we called ourselves "TLS (The Last Straw)" when you have no other choice....
We were terrible runners even me the tactical one so to speak. 

Oh the niche guy these were his two concepts he played 1)aspected mage (SR3) and a sniper (SR4).  We already had a combat mage and a Shaman in the group (gun bunny and concept girl) in that first game so he was sitting around not doing much a lot except support.  And as a sniper well if we were doing out door ops or like hotel ops he could find some good sniper positions but a lot of our fighting that happened was down in the trenches (we had a good GM though so he modified the game for that.) so he ran into problems though he did have other skills.

Though the run I want to do was the first SR4 run that was introduced at GenCon.  That what I want to do but I know I am going to run into resistance about stating out other peoples' characters.

[Ruski]

just sell it as a 'getting to know the new system' run.
most groups I've played with will be up for something like that, at least for one run.

[Yogi]

How did this turn out Bull?  I know that the first time I played SR I was hooked into the game.  It also helped that my buddy lent me the first SR novel that was printed for some insight to the setting.

[bull30548]

Oh I haven't started it yet probably a few more months before I start it.  Which is fine with me cause I want to do more reading I picked up the Corporate Guide since I plan on having them involved and using some of their tactics.

[bull30548]

Okay here is one I want to work up some SR documents (memos, emails, letterhead) but I can't find images for them anymore.  Where would I go for this?  Also anyone else a bit disappointed in the lack of info on the Wiki page for Shadowrun?  I think that since they are working so hard to combine stuff with Shadowrun Universe the Wiki page needs an overhaul as well as some of the storylines that never got wrapped up.  Like the findings into the Dunklezahn assassination that were started almost twenty years ago (game time).

[bull30548]

So hey found those images I was looking for so that the good news.  The bad news is I found them on what I believe is the German Wiki website.  Which I always knew that Germany had been huge Shadowrun fans but now I have seen the proof.  My German (the only language I can read other than English after 2 years of high school for it) is barely passable anymore but it was still good enough to find what I wanted.  Thankfully the logos I was looking for was right there in the corporations entries on the site.  And the other thankful part was that there is no translation for them from English to German. 

However I think this just strengthens my point about getting our wiki page up to par.  Also I didn't go digging but I doubt any of those storylines I wanted wrapped up weren't over in Germany.  Of course I could be wrong maybe for one the US isn't the first come first serve for Shadowrun.  Does anybody know?  It seems plausible considering how many pdfs have been suddenly popping out of catalyst. 

Hehe listen to me sounding like one of the paranoid types from Jackpoint (Shadowtalk).

[Ruski]

If you are having trouble, Google Translate actually works as a translation service, as opposed to a fast and dirty proxy server that most people use it for.

If you are unfamiliar with that service as a proxy server, or what a proxy server is, let alone what its used for; that's a topic for another thread.

[bull30548]

So while we wait on KV to post figure I would ask a question.  Now I have the contact lenses on and I got a lot of bells and whistles on them and I got the small earbuds with the same thing.  Now I couldn't find a rule saying I couldn't have all those bells and whistles.  Anybody know of one just so I know if it comes up in games.

The main complaint I see is the question of what is the point of cyber eyes or ears if you can get them in non cybered form?  And well I look at it as there are still things you can do with the cyber version that you can't with the other items (not unless you get creative and possibly encumbered/injured).  Also unlike the noncybered versions they can never be taken away from you.

[Ruski]

well: with the metal versions, you can't get jossled and loose a contact mid-combat. also cyberware is more resistant to EMP, hacking, and the like.
as far as *how many goodies can I cram in there*, there are rules for 'cyberware accessories space'; I would imagine that the standard priced gear would be one trick ponys. so, if you bought a set of covers with flare comp, and another set with a smartlink interface... then you'd have to choose one or the other.
now: with the cyber eyes, you can get delta ware or more expencive versions that can hold extra goodies. I assume that if you paid say X10 on the price for each, you could get a set of contacts that had both smartlibk and flare compen

[bull30548]

Where is that one written Ruski? Just so I can reference it when the powergamer and/or rules lawyer tries slapping me around?

[Ruski]

Sorry, my phone cut out at the end there...

Honestly: I don't know 'where it's written'.
but: if the rules hold fast for cyberware, where the PC's have an entire 'eye' of space to work with, why would they have 'more' room to cram every accessory available into the space of a contact lens? I mean, even with 'cokebottle glasses' on top of goggles, that's going to be a lot of crap bungy-corded onto your face.

I mean: if you buy a gun, and you get an integrated smartlink you pay 1.75% of the original purchase price, and guns can have ten times their weight in accessories bolted onto them. 

Mostly; it 'makes sense to me'. and that's my golden rule when it comes to that stuff. Maybe it's expressly written somewhere, hell, maybe it was written in a previous version? I've been playing the game for so long that its sometimes difficult to determine what point of minutia came from 2nd edition, and what's fresh out of the current rule set.

but where is it expressively written that you CAN wear 10 different contact lenses at once? Or that you CAN pay the total retail price at street value for two different things, and suddenly they are the same thing?

I can think of lots of examples where buying separate things are expressly restricted from being combined...

Honestly: I like my 10X rule. if you pay ten times the price of everyone else, you get some pretty neat stuff included. and really: with half a million newyen to burn, most PC's would still be able to get the goodies they really wanted without breaking the bank on a pair of contact lenses.

then again, I would make them spend an hour in the stuffer-shack bathroom looking over a filth-crusted floor looking for their 10K newyen contact lens that they dropped on a glitch roll.

but I'm a jerk like that.

[bull30548]

Thanks Ruski I am with you on that but I just wanted to see if there was a rule I missed.  I just noticed it is all I think it was in third too. 

[kv]

I can help with that one- SR4A has the contacts on page 332 under gear, and gives their capacity as the same as their rating (1-3), while if you look at page 341, you'll see the capacity required for the enhancements. Smartlink by itself requires 3, so having smartlinked thermographic imagelink contacts isn't possible.

  -kv