Shadowrun Pub
General => Reviews => Topic started by: Zone on January 24, 2007, 10:17:19 AM
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If you have not seen this movie there are spoilers below you may want to skip...
I think we discussed this movie all ready but as one of da guyz has become recently obsessed I have seen it a couple of times in the past month and want to vent some of my critiques here.
Overall there were some good characters, sadly not as fleshed out as would have been possible in a three year run on tv but good none the less. Malcolm and Wash are by far the most memorable. Zoe and Jayne and to a lesser extent Kaylee are decent support - Jayne has some good lines too. But then I've always noticed and liked that actor. Just as I've always liked Ron Glass, but Book was always sadly underdeveloped, and the doctor was just a meat puppet, and our McGuffin, River was still not as interesting as she should have been.
The plot was no better or worse than one of the tv episodes, I find it hard to believe that the only reason they wanted to stop Simon and River, however, was that she knew about a dead planet. The other nonsensical plot device was Wash's death. As a writer I strongly disapprove of this kind of audience chain jerking. Book's death was logical and reasonable. In story it worked. There was a reason for it. Wash's death was just an emotianal goose that did not further the story and was simply a poor excuse for high drama. He was in fact a necessary foil for Mal and more importantly Zoe.
Adam Baldwin asked an aquaintence of ours if anyone ever noticed that Jayne had a thing for Kaylee. Did you? The only evidence I ever saw of anything like that was in the original tv movie Serenity when she got shot. If he was playing Jayne like he had a thing for Kaylee, I'm guessing it was of the Middle School era type crush things...
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Well, it's not like Jayne was much of a big thinker or mature indevidual. I think 8th Grade crush is about as deep as he would be able to get. Of course, I really never noticed an attraction. He seemed much more interested in Safron and the hooker he had in that unaired episode.
Gabriel
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Sadly, I've already had a long in-depth conversation with someone about whether or not Jayne had a crush on Kaylee.
Her stance was that if not for Simon being around, Jayne would have scored. *shudder*
But look at Jayne- most of his emotional level is grade school. And in the first episode, before you ever really knew anything about the characters, Kaylee is all into the doctor, and Jayne is teasing her like he's a jealous little kid.
Like Zone said, it also showed up in the show when Kaylee was shot.
Honestly, I think he has some sort of emotional attachment, although she doesn't return it (at least, not on the level that he does). So he has a crush on her, and she either doesn't know about it, or doesn't feel the same way, so she doesn't bring it up.
That's my .02Y
As for Walsh dying... I liked it. I know it was opposite of the story- it didn't blend with anything, and they spent the entire movie making him a major character, only to kill him in the last ten minutes. But too often I'm able to predict hollywood movie endings, especially for romcoms and horror movies, which are the literary equivalent of supermarket tabloids. (I mean, the guy and girl who look the best together will end up together. Even if one or both of them have a significant other- they either have to die or turn out to be jerks, so they can break up and the pretty couple can get together at the end) Wash dying was a shock to me- something that made me realize that maybe these characters weren't so immortal, and maybe they COULD die at any time. I kind of expected Book to die, especially with the lack of focus on him, but Wash catching it shook me up, and made the end of the movie that much more interesting.
At least for me. Of course, I loved the movie.
-kv
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yeah the wash thing bugged me i was just thinking baout that the other day
wash and kaylee are my two favorite characters, hands down
i see no reason to kill him off other than to get rid of the actor/character fromt he roster
which just sucks IMHO
and yeah the "only after the tams for this one thing" seemed like a stretch to me
im not saying i cant see that government hiding something like that, thats very believable
the thing that isnt believable is that things changed much because of it. sure maybe some people lost faith in the government, and a few more rebels started back up
but seriously, they can spin, deny or any number of things to that kinda stuff
and the public will go back to thinking their mundane thoughts
people would just forget about it or move on
i find it hard to believe it would change too much
i also find it hard to believe the guy who stalked them, and killed everyone he came in contact with would just be all buddy buddy and a changed man at the end
I did like the movie btw
:)
im just saying, some stuff i dont buy
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If you watch Serenity of DVD take a look at the deleted scenes. There's one that they should not have deleted that expounds on the hunter's 'change of heart.' It wasn't a change of heart so much as it was an acknowledgement of defeat. He had lost - the first time he had I think - and the loss was a loss of everything he knew about himself, so that he asked Mal about how he could go on after he had lost all at Serenity Valley.
My complaint about killing Wash is that its bad story telling. An author should always have a reason, a justification if you will, to bump off a major character and Wash was a hugely popular character. The rule in Hollywood also extends to the comic relief - its not so funny when you kill them off.
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It might be bad storytelling (I don't agree with you there) but it was more like real life- it gave the feeling that anyone could die, and it made the end of the movie more exciting for me.
Kinda like finding out that someone major dies in a Harry Potter book, and you read the whole book on the edge of your seat, not really sure who is safe. I was a little shocked that Dumbledore bit it. More than a little- very shocked.
-kv
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Personally, I'm wondering what else is rattling around in River's brain. I mean, the whole Miranda/Reaver thing can't be the only sensitive information she picked up while they were experimenting on her.
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Well, for one, she probably knows all about the proccess involved in "creating" her and who else was in the program. The thing I really wanted to see was another "recruit" from River's program coming after her, or working as a spy, or something like that. I'm pretty sure that would have cropped up eventually. And you can bet your sweet bippy that whe knows all about Sheperd Book.
Gabriel
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Yeah, there was so much hinting about Book in the series, it was a real cheese that we saw none of the payoff in the feature.
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I'm sure Joss Wheadon wasn't pleased about it either. After all, you can't hit EVERY target in a 2 hour movie.
Gabriel
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I liked the series, and the movie. It was kinda dissappointing to see characters like book and Wash died, but it gave the movie flavor and some realism.
And the alliance didnt send the operative after river simply because of Miranda, they did it because they didnt know what was in her head, and it could have been any number of dirty secrets that make that little mistake look like a dandilion in a field of 4 leaf clovers.
And as for spinning the whole situation, its not a complacent group of people, enless your counting the inner planets, but lotta worlds where the alliance doesnt do anything but watch the peoples farmsteads get burned down by bandits, and their own men. People hear of something like that and you've got some slight paranoia going, and if they wanna do some small project people could go "Hey, what bout that there one place?" and all heck could break loose. so it would be more "Ounce of prevention is worth a hundred times more a pound of cure" .... or something along those lines.
I've heard alot saying Joss really wasnt happy with the movie, to small of time to get out to much stuff, so he probally went with one of the biggest points, and the reason the crew was drawn together as it was, the tams and protecting them. It would have been awesome to learn more about book and other story points that were missed, but just not enough time for it.
And yes, i could totally see Jayne having a bit of a "Crush (Or at least a pitched tent in his jeans)" for kaylee, he did seem rather intent on hearing what she did in her "off time" when she was talking to the captian about simon. then again... if it had a female figure im sure it had his interist. Oh well.
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Yeah, I've heard a lot of people complain about Wash dying, but to be honest, I think it was a great plot device. I mean, people who watched the show might have liked Book, but anyone who only saw the movie (or didn't like Book to begin with) weren't going to care if he died.
Wash, on the other hand, was a main character. Like I said before, and I'll probably end up saying again, the first time you saw the movie, Wash's death was a shock. A big one, especially for fans of the show. And once Wash was dead, it opened up the possibility that any of the characters could die- and given the situation they were headed into, it's even likely they were going to die.
I thought it made the sacrifices they had made seem more real- rather than a bunch of off-screen friend deaths (like Patience showing up face-down for half a second in the movie- I guess she finally got hers), or even a minor character in the movie (like Book), Wash made people sad when he died.
-kv
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I have to admit, the crew really got it's hoop handed to them in that final battle. I HATE when you have the big, climactic battle in a movie and all of a sudden the aliens/mosnters/bad guys are being taken out left and right when one or two of them nearly killed everyone in the beginning of the film. This movie actually had the bad guys beating the drek out of the good guys and the good guys barely limping away from it. Nice.
Gabriel
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Yeah, I also really liked the Operative/Mal fight. I mean... I just really liked it. Mal, who spends all of his days with a pistol as his defense, was better at that, and the Operative, who killed people with a sword through the whole movie was better at that.
-kv
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Yeah, only reason Mal beat the Operative is 'cuz shrapnel damaged that nerve clust the Operative always went for. Gave Mal the opportunity to get a good surprise attack in.
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As much as I like Mal, I kind of think he would have lost that fight. If it would have been a gun fight, then I'm with Mal. But a melee whould have gone to the assassin. However, it WAS nice to see him surprise the cocky cobber.
Gabriel
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Well, when you hit everyone in the same spot, eventually you're going to get someone who isn't affected by it.
The Operative was just unlucky that the guy who didn't happen to be affected by it was one who REALLY wanted to hurt him, knew how, and took advantage of the fact that the operative thought he was disabled.
-kv
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Well, all in all, a good climax to the movie none-the-less.
Gabriel
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Oh, yeah. I so loved them dragging the reavers into the fight with the Alliance forces. A deal with the devil to be sure, because there's no negotiating with either party, but you know you can't do it alone. Kudos for that. Good fight with Mal and the Op, too. As I said, I think they should have left in that one scene tha pretty much explains why the Op quit fighting once the broadcst button was pushed since he was pretty well established as a no quit kinda guy. Killing any prime character would have done what you argue, Kid, therefore IMO, Book's death - the logical one - was sufficient. Without Wash, in a marketing frame of mind, there is no possibility of a decent sequel. I again say killing off your comic relief for simple shock value is just bad story telling. I absolutely demand a good, plausible, logical reason for every primary character death - after that is established, go crazy.
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I think the good, plausible, logical reason he died was a big fraggin' harpoon through his chest. Just a thought.
Gabriel
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Well, there isn't always a good plausible reason why people die- especially in wartime. Or in my shadowrun group, where the morons tend to outnumber the smart runners, and the morons are the ones that somehow always find a way to survive.
Book's death was sad for me, because I really liked the character, but it seemed like I was in the minority there. Wash's death upset a great number of people, because we ALL really liked Wash, but it also gave the impression that anyone could die.
You might not like it, but it is a great storytelling device- Whedon took an established hollywood law (you can't kill the important or likeable characters), and broke it thouroughly. Wash was probably the most likeable character on the crew, and his death was a shock. If Wash could die, then anyone on the crew could die- this wasn't the tightknit group of heroes who remain unchanged per Stan Lee's 1970 instruction that main characters only undergo the "apprearance of change." They were capable of dying, and it made Mal and The Operative's fight that much more tense, and it made the rest of the crew standing off against the reavers that much more threatening and scary. And it made River's sacrifice that much more moving- she really could have died.
I liked it, and I thought it was good writing, even if it didn't follow the established laws of literature and film.
I could compare it to Harry Potter and the "someone is going to die this book," thing JK Rowlings does, but I know Mr. Potter irritates some people here.
-kv
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Now see, it did just the opposite for me, Kid. It was more like... Well, fuck they killed Wash, I guess he's our great sacrifice on the alter of shock; the rest of this fight is going to go all Mal's way.
My favorite SR death followed the remark to the security team "it's okay, we're shadowrunners...."
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LOL! You should have posted that in the CLUE Files.
Gabriel
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kid using your own statemement logicly Mal should have died not walsh think of the emtional effect it would have whenn thier leader th glue that held the crew toghter that despite thier other problems would follow him thru the gates of hell hadd died
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Uhhh... Mal is the show. His ship, his missions, his code of honor, his problems.
Do you really think that Jane would have any problem stealing the medicine from those people? Or any problem dumping Mal and Zoe's old crew mate?
Mal is pretty much the last character they can kill- because he's the center of the show.
-kv
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excatly the opptinty for plot develoment is huge and I suspect that zoey would take over
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Probably, although I could see Jayne making a power bid.
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that he would fail merisably in
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Well, he has been taken down by the Doc several times alredy, so yeah, I can see Jayne failing to grab the crew's loyalty.
Gabriel
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Uhhh... yeah, but just like we were discussing, just because you want something to happen doesn't make it logical. There would be no reason for Inara to be on the ship anymore, so she would leave. The Doctor and River would get too comfortable, and probably get caught, and Book would have had no reason to stay.
Mal was the center character. His death means the end of the series. It would be like if Kirk died in the original Star Trek- Spock could have taken over, but they just would have ended the show.
-kv
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They DID just end the show.
Gabriel
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From what I've heard, Whedon has kept in contact with the actors, and there have been talks to make a second movie. At first it got held up because he was doing Wonder Woman, but he just formally pulled out of that project, so there's room for him to breathe.
-kv
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well guess that moive will be fragged up
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Nah, he has too much love for the characters to mess up the plot.
Gabriel
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Loved Wash and Book all to death...
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Oh come on. Maybe the next movie will actually reveal some of Book's background, a kind of post-mortum run?
Gabriel
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Be about fraggin time...
Be nice if they cloned Wash too ;D
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Or maybe found out Zoe had been pregnent. Son of Walsh!!
Gabriel
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Now that's in keeping with the stated preference for westerns...
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I think it might be pretty intersting now that I flash on it. But I would prefere something dealing with Niska and the underworld with the Book tie-in.
Gabriel
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acturaly I was refering to the ww moive he was working on
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well, I'm afraid that they'll take it and make it something horrible and lipstick girl-power, like Catwoman ("Think Spiderman- but with cats instead of spiders!") or Electra ("Think Spiderman- only with electras instead of spiders!"), but I was actually relieved when Whedon got tapped to do it.
Of course, there were two guys who wrote a WWII-era script for it, which they bought (I think they didn't like Whedon's take on it, or something like that, and were looking for ideas to throw at him), but now that Whedon is gone, I'm a little afraid it's going to suck again.
-kv
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Well, on the up-side of all of that, Wheedon is now scripting one of the comics I read. So at least I get a bit of good out of all of this.
Gabriel
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Astonishing X-Men? I stopped buying them when Collossus return and only occasionally check what's happening when I stop by the hobby store.
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Yeah, I'm not big on the X-Books anymore. Way too much inconsistancy for me. Too much wishy-washy story telling.
Gabriel
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Well, Stan Lee's Edict that there only be the appearance of change is still in place, so people generally grow out of comics. I just get annoyed when they can't leave something done- so Prof X gets his legs back (what, three times now?) and each time, he has ANOTHER accident that leaves him a paraplegic cripple.
And Colossus came back. His death was a little too Jesus (the one mutant giving his life so that all might live), but I was WAY annoyed by him being written back into the comics.
-kv
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Exactly. At least the DC universe tries to change itself from time to time.
Gabriel
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And that's why I mostly read fanfics.
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As a rule, I try to avoid fanfics. Although some of them are really good, the majority of them... well, I don't like the majority of them. And I'm not completely sure that the ones that are any good are worth reading through the ones that aren't.
I do enjoy that the DC universe is able to change from time to time- killing Robins, rather than having MaryJane get back together with Peter- they were seperated, and supposed to get divorced, but that changes something, so she comes back and quits her job because she loves him so much. Awww... how... wait, that writing sucks!
Especially with Vertigo (DC's Indie line) they're free to do pretty much whatever they want. See "American Virgin" (which isn't any good, but interesting writing) and "Y: The Last Man" (incredibly good writing, interesting ideas, sub-par artwork) for reference.
-kv
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If you can find a decent archive where they actually filter what's posted, you can find some good fics.
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To date, I haven't seen one. Do you have any regular readings that you might suggest?
Speaking of Serenity, I know a woman (my friend's wife- who we got hooked on Serenity) who now writes fanfics, and they have some HORRIBLE fan fics out there.
Jayne- in love triangles that... *shudder* I really don't want to think about.
Her personal favorite fanfics are the ones where Jayne gets Kaylee, rather than the doc.
-kv
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I'm still looking for a good Firefly/Serenity archive, but I do know of site that has decent X-Men fics. Just google Idylls of the Cat or Luba Kmetyk.
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Her personal favorite fanfics are the ones where Jayne gets Kaylee, rather than the doc.
-kv
Why whould Jayne want to "get" the doc??
Gabriel
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Uhhh... actually that would be one of the fanfics that I did my *Shudder* for.
Jayne gets Kaylee, rather than the Doc getting Kaylee. Weirdo.
-kv
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Hey, I didn't type that sentence. Don't blame me if you were vague.
Gabriel
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Get your mind out of the gutter. There's not room down there for all of us!
-kv
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You get out. I was here first. ;)
Gabriel