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[mercy]

Well, combat can still bog down a bit, but I've always felt that since it is so deadly, then once you get a light or medium wound, then the rest goes down hill pretty quickly. As for melle combat, yeah, it still sucks troll dong. I started using it a lot more in my recent games, and found that it was very poorly thought out. The idea of being able to do damage to someone by defending yourself always sat really badly with me. To put it anohter way, and this is from a gamer who liked super-hero games, "This sucks! So you're telling me that if the Flash ran up to someone and hit them 20 times in a second, they could do damage to HIM every time? So basicly you can attack someone and kill yourself before he even gets to attack you back??"

Personally, I have to agree with the player on that one. However, if you get yourself a copy of the Cannon Companion, they have a bunch of fighting styles in there that compliment the normal melee fighting rather well. You still have the problems, but now you have OPTIONS.

Gabriel

gabe avent you ever heard of akido as I understand it it it has no offseive moves at all its all defensive but you can serisesly frag someone up with it using thier own kenitic engery against them

[ROOTless]

Aikido is actually usually fairly nice about things, but then, it's the 'nice' version of Aikijutsu, which does just about that.

[ROOTless]

SR4 has ben out for a while now.
Have anyone played it? Is it any good?

[kv]

My brother (Ruski) really wants to play it, but I've been dragging my feet on it. I don't especially like the WoD-ish new ruleset... I do believe him that the rules have been streamlined, but I've just barely gotten my family (the group I play Shadowrun with) to understand the rules to the point that they shudder when I mention insect spirits.

Ahhh... time for a mob war. And a corp war. I've been playing up Fuchi in recent games, so they get a lot more mention than anything but Saeder-Krupp, Ares, and Renracu... and Aztechnology. So I think pulling them apart will make the world seem a little more maleable and dangerous.

  -kv

[swirler]

the thing about it, remember is that wod was loosely modeled off the shadorun rules (atleast to a certain degree)

I havent had a chance to play yet. I am liking the streamlining from what ive read. I both like and dislike the wireless world thing.

Im also trying to figure out how some things work that havent been touched on yet in the new stuff

[Zone]

SR4 has ben out for a while now.
Have anyone played it? Is it any good?

Are you kidding? we haven't even played 3rd yet; and GM hates Cyberpunk 2nd so we're always stuck on 1st with that if he's running   I like 2nd.  All my supplements are 2nd.
One of da guyz haS  SR3 core book, so we'll pitch it at the next game change-over

[Ingo Monk]

A little behind the times?  

[kv]

Actually, as much as it hurts gaming companies, it's usually better to be a little behind the curve, because so many products fail and are poorly made, and never go anywhere. If Zone was keeping current and playing 4th edition, she would still be waiting on good sourcebooks like the rest of us.

This way, even if she does make the jump to third edition, she'll have almost ten years worth of games and sourcebooks to swim through before she'll get to the (ugh) wireless matrix.

  -kv

[BornKrazi]

Yeah the wirless matrix sounds like an interesting concept...

[Gilliam]

     It brings in several interesting tactics.  Technomancers and Hackers play almost like mages now, since there's usually something around that they can wirelessly affect, in one way or another.  A hacker driving a car through his 'link, for example, can real-time hack gridguide at the same time to cut his travel time.  'Course, it takes a really good hacker to do that and not get caught...

     I've run quite a few games now with sr4, and I find the system to be a good one.  It brings the whole game together, with all mechanics working the same.  I've acquired and tested the mechanics and spells coming out of Street Magic, and even played around with a few initiate mages as NPC's.  For the most part, SR4 seems the superior system.  

     I like it mainly because it allows a lot more player survivablility.  For instance: Dodging, this used to require dice left over from your combat pool (and who ever remembered to do that before their 9th character).  With the new combat system, hitting anything is an opposed test between your skill+attribute and the opponents reaction.  Plus dodge or gymnastics if they decide to go on full defense.  This makes for a smidgen more character survivablility.  Before anyone pales in shock, remember that it takes a lot more successes now to fully dodge an attack, sr3 might let you squeak by with 2 or 3 sucesses to dodge a pistol shot, that also might only have had 2 or 3 successes.  Sr4 ups the stakes.

     Another thing this system offers, is a built-in mechanic to allow new players to catch up to the learning curve, as far as what they should and shouldn't decide to engage.  If a character dies, he can permanently burn an edge point to "survive against the odds."  In this case, he'll wake up in a hospital, or perhaps get picked up by his team, or, if I'm feeling mean... wake up in the middle of the barrens with a screwed up condition monitor.  But the point is, this character is ALIVE.  I don't have to mess around with having the player make a new character (greuling in sr3, and still not too much fun in sr4), or changing the name and re-introducing himself with the same stats.  This mechanic, and other things invilving edge, pretty much sum up what I love about the new system.  Edge replaces uber-confusing dice pools, and is generally more useful.  Wiley, my advice to you, when you're making characters, is to make sure they have high edge attributes.  It may seem like a waste of points at character creation, but it'll pay off later.

[ROOTless]

If a character dies, he can permanently burn an edge point to "survive against the odds."  In this case, he'll wake up in a hospital, or perhaps get picked up by his team, or, if I'm feeling mean... wake up in the middle of the barrens with a screwed up condition monitor.

I don't think we agree on the meaning of 'mean'

[kv]

I believe I would have to side with ROOTless in that debate.

Mean would be having the dumbass who burned all thier karma for the "finger of god" so that they could survive lighting a magnesium flare in an oil refinery pipe shoot out into the ocean and drown.

Huh... I guess that isn't even all that mean. Not like they didn't deserve it.

  -kv

[swirler]

I dont think Gilliam was refering to the terminally stupid players/characters. I figured they meant the character who normally has it together but somehow gets totally screwed over by a roll or two. Part of the fun of action games or movies or whatever is when the character has everything against him and somehow cheats death. Now granted this can be overdone or done poorly but, hey, thats why GM's should be atleast someone creative

[kv]

My group had two rules about the "Finger of God."

1) It could only be done once.

2) It couldn't be done with a new character, no matter how 'cool.'

  -kv

[BornKrazi]

I've never really had that problem, but should it arise I'd agree with Kid Vid that it could only be used once, but I wouldn't care if it was a new character, that's their loss for burning it that early...