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[Retread]

Yes, this is true, but I'd much rather just have a sustaining focus. One could postulate that any spell could be "learned" as an adept power, you'd just have to make rules up for it.

If I wanted to breathe fire as an adept ability, you could do it. Or invisibility, or armor, whatever.

[kv]

Okay... is there a mage equivalent of a Watcher Spirit?

  -kv

[Retread]

Watcher spirits are the same for both shamen and mages.

[Retread]

and Idolic priests, and Wujen, and Houngans, and followers of the Wheel, and Koradji, and Shinto Miko, and Witches, and Monks... need I go on?

[kv]

Are there any benefits for choosing a tradition other than Hermetic or Shaman?

  -kv

[ROOTless]

The short and sweet answer is 'no'.

The longer and more precise answer is ...well, maybe.

Mostly it's a question of which kind of spirits you summon.
Wu-Jen are a sort of animistic shaman/hermetic cross. Kinda nice, but nothing really exceptional. My initial thought was that it was the choice for a player who couldn't decide wether to play a hermetic or a shaman. It's not a precise description, but it will do, unless you have some specific reason to go for chinese flavoured magic.

Idolic Priests are basically a kind of shamans, but with Idolic Totems instead of animalistic.
A follower of Creator or Trickter, instead of Sun or Coyote.

Psionics are just magicians with their own kind of spirit (only one option), but they seem rather kind of misguided, really.

Houngans summon Loa spirits, which cannot materialize, but can instead posses their Houngans (or Mambos), as well as prepared worshippers (Voudoun is more of a religion than any of the others, really). This grants certain benefits to the possessed person certain advantages, but is not entirely controllable.

And that's basically yhe whole point, now innit.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each tradition.
Hermetics need expensive libraries and have complex summonings, but can have a whole entourage of Elemental hangers-on at any one time, with just a little preparation.
They can choose to take the Drain from summoning at a point of time when it's practical for them, and they are fairly certain they're safe.
Shamans by comparison need only cheap lodges, have totemic modifiers, and on-site summonings, but can only summon the kind of spirit appropriate for the one place they are in, and have to take the Drain in-situ, where it'll count against the amount of spells s-/he can reliably cast etc.
And it's the same with each of the other traditions, there are advantages and disadvantages, and where certain disadvantages will be practically void in some campaigns, they might be crippeling in others. Textbook example: The long summonings used by Hermetics. If it's assumed that there's a fai bit of downtime between between each run and they are nice and short, it's not a problem that the Mage spends a few days summoning a few more elementals, or binding those he already has for a few more favours.
If it's high paced, in-your-face action with no breaks and long stories with no downtime, and you just can't expect to sit still for 12 hours without getting your door kicked down, then hermetics can pretty much wave their spirits bye-bye.

Was this any help?

[Retread]

Wujen summon Elemental Spirits, which are like elemental nature spirits. They are summoned as a result of a natural element with no complex ritual and no cost but cannot leave their domain, their domain being anywhere within sight of their "birth element" or forcex10 meters beyond. So, if you're inside a roaring house-fire (or in direct view of one), you can summon a salamander. Even a hot summer day, with heat rising from the sunny ground can you call a salamander. Anywhere in view of natural earth can you call a Gnome. A stiff natural breeze, allows you to call a Sylphid and natural water or ice, you can call an Undine. Near plants or trees, you can summon Manitous.

These spirits powers are like a combination of elemental and nature spirit, with domain based powers and elemental projection powers. A salamander for example, can engulf in flame, do extra damage when engaged in melee combat, shoot flames like a fire elemental but can also Guard from accidents within it's environment (ie, protect against fire). Salamanders also have the invaluable ability of Magical Guard, which allows them to give spell defense to a number of people or objects equal to its force, including other spirit powers. They can also telekinetically move objects.

Basic Spirits of the Elements can only be summoned on a one-for-one basis. So you cannot have two summoned at once, otherwise the other disappears as you are considered to have left it's domain. However, greater-form spirits behave more like elementals insofar as they can leave their domain, meaning you can summon a number of them equal to your charisma and have them "on-call" Greater forms also get the marvelously scary STORM power and the cleansing ability, perfect for getting rid of that nasty background count that's hampering your spells or aiding your enemies.

Here's an example: Jennifer Wu, the Wujen is in a corporate office with some chummers,. The drek hits the fan and goons are on their way so the wujen needs some help. There's not a lot of natural stuff inside this facility, but she has some options. She can call in the decker to crank up the air-ventilation so she can summon a Sylph, use a potted ficus in the corner to summon a manitou, or use the dirt inside the pot to summon a gnome. She can light a fire inside a wastebasket and summon a salamander or she can ask the troll to knock over the water-cooler and summon an Undine (pronounced Un-dee-nee) The GM in this case, noting the weakness of these elements, tells Jen's controller that the force of her summons are limited as the elemental force is weak here. Jenny comes up with a plan, she calls in the decker and has him turn on the emergency sprinkler system, the GM says that eases the limits so she summons a force 5 Undine, saving against drain, she summons it again in Greater form. The goons don't even know what hit them as the driving sprinkler system and raging storm power of the spirit nearly kill half the guards and the rest are weakened and retreat. Ms. Wu, nearly drained gets the frag outta there before the storm hits, saving them from it's wrath. The spirit catches up with her later, although a little worse for wear.

This is a hypothetical situation, however, as Wujen aren't technically allowed to summon without a strong, completely natural element. However, this would make them nearly useless as summoners in most areas of shadowrunner expertise, so I've loosened the rules to accomodate the player by requiring the presence of the element but have the spirit arrive in a weakened fashion.

[Edit] Also, Houngans can make zombies for Loa to reside in, as well.

[kv]

Okay, how do favors work with elementals? (or services with spirits)

I mean, does an elemental have (Force) number of favors, or is it just one favor no matter what force?

How would you bind more favors to an elemental? Is the same thing possible with services for a spirit?

 -kv

[mercy]

I belive you can by more favors  by giveing it karma

[ROOTless]

OK, item number one: Retread, you may rule like that, but the was I read it, most of you summoning examples are broken. The water in the water cooler (or the sprinklers), as well as the earth of the potted plant are all examples of elements that are not natural enough to summon the spirits of the Wu-Jen.

Remember how you can 'kill' earth, to make it irrelevant as far as astral bodies go?
If I recall correctly, the same goes for Elemental Spirits. The dirt in the pot has been removed from the Earth (metaphysical concept), and indeed been isolated via plastic. The same goes for the water in the watercooler.
The water from the sprinkler system would, perhaps, be open for debate, but I'd probably still argue not to.

Notice your own statements?

Anywhere in view of natural earth can you call a Gnome. A stiff natural breeze, allows you to call a Sylphid and natural water or ice, you can call an Undine

It could easily be argued that in your example, there is not natural earth, not natural breeze (no matter how cranked up the Air Conditioning) and no natural water.


Now, the bit I actually wanted to reply to:
When you summon a spirit, that spirirt 'owes' you a number of favours equal to the number of successes on your summoning roll.
Elementals may be 're-summoned' for a greater number of favours.

EDIT: as for the bit about giving it karma, that's mostly for when you bargain with Free Spirits.

[kv]

So I summon a force 4 fire elemental, and manage three successes- and it owes me three favors? THat makes sense. And then, if i have time later, I can re-summon the same elemental, and get more successes, and therefore more favors?

  -kv

[Retread]

I already noted in the example how I bent the rules. That's why I proclaimed that those elements weren't terribly powerful. The implication is that a Wujen would be utterly useless in most Shadowrunning situations as they cannot summon a darn thing inside anything man-made. The ideal being a game balance issue where even the kookiest of shamen can summon at least a hearth spirit while a Wujen is left out to dry. The implication of natural and unnatural are silly in my opinion because dirt is dirt and it's being used to grow something in it. By that respect, you shouldn't be able to summon a Manitou from the ficus because it was grown by man, and yet, somehow that ficus still lives off the dirt, and the water it is given, and the carbon dioxide that it breathes, and would still burn in a fire. An element is an element. I'd never expect the player to be able to summon spirit of the elements from concrete, or a nuclear reactor, or a septic tank or a mud puddle. But to throw out the Wujen's ability completely seems unfair compared to the power of other conjurers. It would make an Aspected Conjuror Wujen entirely useless in most situations, which implies that FASA/FanPro didn't really think about that when they designed the rules for them. Hence, the limits on force or even a penalty for summoning them.

A pipeline full of water isn' natural? Obviously not. How about a barrel fire made of burning garbage? Not a natural fire? What about a planter filled with dirt? Not natural earth, obviously. What about the ducted air system for life support in an underwater arcology? Not a natural air current. Hydroponic crops obviously aren't natural, so they couldn't summon manitous. However, all these things have in common is that they are connected to life, regardless of their direct connection to the Earth or the ecosystem. Without that dirt, the plant would die. Without that artificial air current, people and plants would die. Without all of these elements, that atmosphere would be incredibly toxic and harmful to the Astral plane. Without these elements there is death, so conversely, these elements, however artificial, are alive and as such, have a spirit, even if that spirit is dull and boring. At least, that's how I see it.

[ROOTless]

I can see your argument Retread, and have yet to decide wether I agree with it or not. I was merely pointing out that it was not strictly according to the rules as writte, making your example perhaps less than perfect for the specific discussion.

So I summon a force 4 fire elemental, and manage three successes- and it owes me three favors? THat makes sense. And then, if i have time later, I can re-summon the same elemental, and get more successes, and therefore more favors?

Time and summoning materials, but yeah, that's the point.

[Retread]

The rub in the current rules regards a controlling contest. See, there's a loophole, if one mage attempts to control another mage's elemental they don't need to resummon the elemental with a new ritual, they can just overcome the other mage's controlling test and get the net successes in favors. See the catch here? Two players can intentionally flub their controlling tests, by getting drunk or something to raise their target number so the other one gets more net successes and get an infinite number of favors. To overcome this, the GM is responsible for saying that the elemental can not owe more favors than with which it originally started.

On the subject of Spirits of the Elements, I prefer to think of them as guardians of the environment and as such, the conglomeration of all 5 types creates the domain for a nature spirit to reside. This explains the vehement hatred that SoEs have for toxic spirits. By this respect, the elements that reside inside a spirit of man's domain contribute to the growth and defense of that domain. I know that if I worked in an office with no ventilation, water, atmosphere, or heat I'd probably be miserable and drive the domain into toxicity, something those spirits are supposed to prevent. You see the relationship here? Wuxing is the art of manipulating the smaller parts of the greater domain, while shamanism looks at the whole picture and asks the domain help them on the whole.

The relationship is inverse with nature spirits with regards to toxic spirits. Nature spirits regard toxics with fear, because they are by nature the whole of the domain, the brain, while SoE are like anti-bodies and systemic functions that spread across all domains to defend against the toxics, like anti-bodies and immune response. You'd avoid a rotting pile of disease on just cause because you look at it logically, however, your anti-bodies would fight that disease no matter what. However, if a domain becomes toxic, than any SoEs as part of that domain are by their nature, toxic as well. A poisoned lake, a burning oil slick, the human incinerators at one of the Native American "rehabilitation camps" or Nazi Auschwitz, a clear cut forest, a strip mine. Heck, elements used in human destruction and torture  are toxic as well. The coal pit for a branding iron, a tree used for a lynching, a water torture device, the soil around a person buried alive, a wind-tunnel used to rend flesh, etc. All these domains are toxic, and as such, so are their anti-bodies, their Spirits of the Elements.

[kv]

How does blood magic work? Does the mage not experience any drain at all? Does he have rituals to offset it beforehand?

I've heard that the mage has to kill people- but does he set them aside as a sacrifice, and then kill them with his drain, or does he kill them, and use thier blood to offset the drain... or what?

This is very confusing, and I would like to understand it so I can have a bloodmage villian.

  -kv