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[Evilness45]

As for the initial topic. I'd like to add that there's no damage resistance test against direct combat spells, such as Powerball. Exceeding the Object Resistance Spell is the only thing that matter, with exceeding hits scoring additional damage.

[Ingo Monk]

This is an old thread, had to reread the whole thing to figure out what was going on! 

Erm, if I recall, Spell Defense was a specialization of the Sorcery skill, along with Dispelling:

Sorcery (Dispelling, Spell Defense, and Spell Casting)

Conjuring (Banishing, Summoning, Controlling)

Sorcery is a skill in SR3, Spell Casting is a skill in SR4.  In SR4 (which this thread is about) you can specialize spellcasting into spell type (combat, detection, etc.)

As for the initial topic. I'd like to add that there's no damage resistance test against direct combat spells, such as Powerball. Exceeding the Object Resistance Spell is the only thing that matter, with exceeding hits scoring additional damage.

I had to look this one up, it's been a couple of years since I've played SR.
 Please note this excerpt from SR4 (SR4 20th, pg 183), specifically the bold part:

A spell cast on a non-living, non-magic target is not resisted, as
the object has no life force and thus no connection to mana with
which to oppose the casting of the spell (note that only Physical spells
will affect non-living objects; mana spells have no effect). Highly processed
and artificial items are more difficult to affect than natural, organic
objects. Spells cast on non-living objects require a Success Test
with a threshold based on the type of object affected (see the Object
Resistance Table). Note that objects targeted by Combat spells get to
resist the damage as they would any ranged attack; use their Armor
rating x 2 (or just Armor against spells with elemental effects) to resist
the damage (Barriers, p. 166).

Also the object resistance table (same page SR4 20th):

category (threshold)
Natural Objects (1)
(Trees, Soil, Unprocessed Water)
Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials (2)
(Brick, Leather, Simple Plastics)
Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials (4)
(Advanced Plastics, Alloys, Electronic Equipment)
Highly Processed Objects (6+)
(Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)

I realize now that my initial assessment of the powerbolt vs. nightsky situation was not completely correct (at least looking at the 20th anniversary edition of SR4 now).  The object resistance table lists vehicles as 6+ (previously was 4), meaning at least 6 net hits to succeed.  Then the vehicle resists with Armor x2, in this case a 20 dice pool.  Automatic successes is pool/4, so automatic 5 successes.  Force 5 power bolt vs. the nightsky with 6 hits on spellcasting test nets no damage.  7 hits on spellcasting test would do 6 damage, minus 5 automatic successes from the vehicle would net 1 damage to the limo.

....I want to play again!

[bull30548]

Hey Ingo I may have found another unbalancing factor with magic.  I was looking over the new magical society webbook they released and saw something that made me laugh.  It made me laugh because it was just another possible unbalancing magic but also made more sense.   It had a Mystic Adept with a magic score of 14 with 6 in magic and 8 in adept powers.  Now it looks like he increased his magic rating by karma alone and the rest by initiation.  However, due to the split that Mystic Adepts usually take they are able to get their magic ratings higher than a regular mage.  Mages are difficult on their own at the beginning of a game but come into there own with a little karma.  Mystic Adepts have a bigger handicap but they can bust out wider and bigger than them.

Edit: So I checked it out with Chummer and it doesn't recognize that yet.

[Ingo Monk]

Wait, how did you get a character with a Magic rating of 14?  Assuming you started with 6, that's 8 grades of initiation plus 8 additional rating to the magic attribute.

Initiation cost is 10 + (Grade x 3) in Karma. (SR4A pg 198)
Improving an attribute is new rating x 5 in Karma. (SR4A pg 270)

So starting at Magic 6, that's 8 initiate grades.
Grade 1 = 13 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 7)
Grade 2 = 16 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 8 )
Grade 3 = 19 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 9)
Grade 4 = 22 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 10)
Grade 5 = 25 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 11)
Grade 6 = 28 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 12)
Grade 7 = 31 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 13)
Grade 8 = 34 Karma (Max Magic Rating is 14)
Total Karma spent on initiation = 188

And since you don't get those attribute points for free, you need to spend Karma to increase your magic rating (and thus get those precious adept power points)
Magic Rating 7 = 35
Magic Rating 8 = 40
Magic Rating 9 = 45
Magic Rating 10 = 50
Magic Rating 11 = 55
Magic Rating 12 = 60
Magic Rating 13 = 65
Magic Rating 14 = 70
Total Karma spent on attributes: 420.

Total Karma cost for a mystic adept with 8 grades of initiation and total magic rating 14 (but effective magic rating 6 for spells): 608

That's an "Epic Level" character if I ever saw one, hahaha!  Most runners "retire" around 100 Karma, at least that's what I read somewhere. 

I recall playing "Epic Level" D&D 3.0 once, I was level total level 21 with all the classes/prestige classes etc.  A dragon came at us and with my insane initiative I went first, and I killed the dragon in my first set of attacks.  No one else in my group, not even the dragon, got an action before it died.  After that it wasn't fun anymore

[bull30548]

As I said it was in the Magical Society web book that was released recently.  It a Prime Runner honestly and an uber one at that I agree.  There is also the write up for Harlequin and he is just scary powerful.

[Ingo Monk]

What the...?  Harlequin isn't supposed to have stats.  He's supposed to be one of those enigmas of the SR game universe, no one knows how old he is or how powerful he is, or what his scheme is when he's working with players.

I'm going to have to look at this web book, and afterwards probably strike it from my memory haha.

[kv]

Yeah, they gave ol Harley stats in one of the newer books, although Frosty says this is post-ritual (those in the know will know what I mean), and that Harlequin was severely weakened by that, so he might be this powerful, or much more powerful, depending on how much he's recovered by the time you go up against him.

Still, a lot of people were unhappy with Harlequin getting stats.

  -kv

[bull30548]

Actually the way I had it explained to me Harley always had stats you just had to know where to look in the Fasa system.  Also they were never given in one book but in several in bits and pieces.  My friend referred to it as the quin question.  I don't know if that was true or not but he openly admitted to being Fasa's b****.  Also KV right this is post not past I believe it listed in the Artifacts Unbound book.  However one of the story threads is the fact that apparently he is trying to regain  his former power.  They also brought back Bull for the history lesson on Harley.  Which well makes me chuckle cause I didn't even know about him because most of this was after me.

[The Laughing Man]

I know this is an old topic, but two things amuse me about it. 1; A person or object can only get auto successes in a non stressful situation and 2; Damage values are rolled like any other dice pool. So a Force 14 spell as it's DV is 14 dice rolled. Magic is  not as broken as some people think.

[Ingo Monk]

First of all, hello and welcome to the Pub!

...A person or object can only get auto successes in a non stressful situation and ...

Yes and no, it's actually GM discretion whether or not to allow it:

Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and nonstressful.

As you said, non-stressful situations... but also situations where someone would need to roll an excessive number of dice.  Really, whenever the GM allows, so it could be all of the time, only in non-stressful situations, or even none of the time

...Damage values are rolled like any other dice pool. So a Force 14 spell as it's DV is 14 dice rolled. ..

You don't actually roll DV for attacks. 

In physical combat there's an opposed test to determine if the attack hits (i.e. pistols + agility vs reaction).  The net hits are added to the base DV of the attack, which is now called the modified DV. If the attack has an AP rating or the defender's armor has special abilities vs that attack the armor value is modified.  At this point the defender rolls a normal success test of their attribute + modified armor, net hits reduce the modified DV and takes any DV left over as damage.  The attacker does not roll their DV or modified DV again before the defender resists.

In magical combat (for direct spells) there is an opposed test to see if the spell affects the target.  The attacker rolls skill + magic and the defender rolls resistance.  The difference here (which incidentally I just found out) is that net hits only increase the damage if the casting magician also increases drain by the same net hits.  For example 2 net hits on an opposed test of a force 5 spell would be DV 7 only if the spellcaster would also increase the drain value by +2.  The defender does not get another roll to resist the damage like they do with physical attacks, their only chance is the initial roll to resist the spell itself.

-Ingo