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[Ruski]

Ghouls should be difficult enough. Add in some RP for flair.

[Bullet Sponge]

I'm waiting on KV to get back to me about a few conception v. rules clarifications. Then I'll get the 2nd concept posted. Other than waiting for KV we can continue FRAG. Oh, wait, we...are....waiting for...KV.

Nevermind??

[bull30548]

Well I can post up my troll if need be but Kinsey 3.0 should work.  Though honestly this is just a thought process in making a adequate mage.  Or KV roadkill number 3 depending on how it works out.

[kv]

Bull: You should be okay, I think you've gotten the hang of how a mage can be played (and how easy it is to burn one out); and more importantly, how powerful they can be when they're slinging magic.


Bulletsponge: You can also post your questions here, there are one or two experts available. In the mean time, go ahead and post the concept, even if you don't have every little thing decided. And I'll look forward to making your troll not fit into doorways and cars and stuff.


Ingo: Do you mind a story-type reward for your rules exploration?


Ruski: You know me; 90% roleplaying, 10% flavor, 2% actual rules, 8% math errors and dice rolling.
(Yes, I give 110%).


  - Kv

[bull30548]

Actually 120% 10% putting up with me.

[Bullet Sponge]

KV said to post my questions to all the various experts among us so...

The idea I'm considering is a heavy weapons troll. Is there something that says what kind of (or how heavy) a weapon can be used with what level strength? He has a 7 strength, so can he fire a medium machine gun while standing or does he have to stick with the light? (Assuming he can afford the medium. Its about double the cost.) What strength would be needed for a medium? A heavy?
 
Also, single shot (SS) weapons can only be fired once per init pass, but can be fired each pass of an entire round (if they have the ammo capacity)....right? Here's what I'm thinking: 2 Ruger Super Warhawk revolvers (1 in each hand) with ambidextrous. Here's how it would work (in theory):
1st pass: quick draw/shoot right; quick draw/shoot left (free act engage smartgun-right)
2nd pass: fire right; (free act engage smartgun-left); fire left
3rd pass: fire left; (free act engage smartgun-right); fire right
4th pass: fire right; (free act engage smartgun-left); fire left
you get the idea from here.....
 
Yes, after 6 shots with each hand they would both need to be reloaded, but it's more fun this way. That's why I have 10 speed loaders.

 KV supposes that you have to "disconnect" the smartgun from one gun to switch to the other as a free action. I'm hoping that he's wrong (my idea is MUCH cooler that way), but I don't know. Does anybody have any solid info? Pretty please...

[bull30548]

Carrying capacity is pretty easy to answer up front. Strength * 10 kilograms after that every 5 kilograms over that is a -1 to all physical actions.  However, the game doesn't give you weights so you have to do a little research on your own and it really going to come down to what KV is going to let slide. 

As for strength requirements to carry certain weapons there are none I can find.  The real catch is going to be Recoil Compensation but there are things to help.  I recommend getting something affordable that has plenty of modding options.  Gas Vent 3 and a Gyro mount are going to be your friends dropping RC by 8.  However, heavy weapons have a stipulation stating that RC is doubled after compensation is applied so even dropping a gun by 8 if your RC is a 14 you just dropped it down to 6 and it is back at 12 but that better than 28.  Now they have changed the Gyro mount from the good ol' days.  Used to the rules were a little murky so a lot of GM's designated that you could stand and fire the gyro mount but you couldn't run turn and fire with it while moving as the gyro would fight against you as it saw this putting it off balance.  Fourth edition clarifies you can run and fire with it.

Now KV ruling is actually better than the books as it does not allow you to use a smartlink at all while dual wielding.  Smartlinks were designed to be like an automated spotter but it only process one target at a time.  Now I do think I have a solution to this if you really want to do the dual wield and that is an interesting trick in itself and that is to have a full cyberarm with a gun in it.  Then you set it up with it a weapon commlink  and personality that has a Agent that can do the work for you as far as aiming and firing it.  Essentially you are turning that arm into a drone in certain combat situations.  Another item you may want to look at is Tac Software to run on your commlinks and convincing your teammates to run one as well.  You would need all of us to get any bonus so may not be that great. 

Now what character would I recommend looking at? The weapon specialist probably a could template to build off of.  The reason why is your going to want Armorer skill.  The reason why is that you may not be able to go to your local weaponsmith in the middle of the run so being able to tweak or just clean your weapons will be helpful.  Also I have a soft spot for it as in 3rd edition this was my first character.  Human Weapon Specialist that got fragged on the first leg of investigating the Renraku Shutdown so long ago.

Now this is where you going to have to get really creative.  We are working in Denver so getting these rather large cumbersome pieces of metal through check points could be a pain.  Then there is the fact these things are very imprecise weapons.  Game wise you are only gaining a single die for a lot of headache.  RP wise you are gaining a lot of headache for a weapon system you may not be able to employ all the time.  Also I will be honest heavy weapons are game changers just straight up and down.  Yeah, that rent a cop see that thing he running for it.  It being the commlink that calls in whatever corp he is working for Big Guns.  And if you even think of brandishing that in the general direction of law enforcement they going to shoot first shoot second shoot some more and then maybe tell you to freeze or drop it.

Books I recommend (and KV will have to yay or nay) Gun Heaven 1 & 2 (ebooks) and War!.  These might help you get a better handle as to how you acquired the skills with these big boom sticks and also Gun Heaven introduced Battle Rifles which is between Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles.  They pretty neat so take a look see if you like.

That is all I got honestly because heavy weapons were always on my drones so I used Gunnery more than the Heavy Weapons skill.  I did have the skill and I owned a Ballista Rocket system that I did take on a run and that got us into a ton of trouble when the illusion on me dropped and all the security saw a dwarf with a backpack rocket launcher.  Ahhhhh good times.....  I think I ended up in DocWagon ICU for like 2 weeks after that run and I needed a new backpack system.

Hard Data
Carrying Capacity p.310 SR4 20th ann
Recoil Compensation p. 152 SR4 20th ann
Gyro Stabiliztion rule p.153 item pg. 322 SR4 20th ann
Tactical Computer p. 124-127 Unwired
Armorer p. 126 SR4 20th ann

[Ingo Monk]

KV said to post my questions to all the various experts among us so...

The idea I'm considering is a heavy weapons troll. Is there something that says what kind of (or how heavy) a weapon can be used with what level strength? He has a 7 strength, so can he fire a medium machine gun while standing or does he have to stick with the light? (Assuming he can afford the medium. Its about double the cost.) What strength would be needed for a medium? A heavy?
 
Also, single shot (SS) weapons can only be fired once per init pass, but can be fired each pass of an entire round (if they have the ammo capacity)....right? Here's what I'm thinking: 2 Ruger Super Warhawk revolvers (1 in each hand) with ambidextrous. Here's how it would work (in theory):
1st pass: quick draw/shoot right; quick draw/shoot left (free act engage smartgun-right)
2nd pass: fire right; (free act engage smartgun-left); fire left
3rd pass: fire left; (free act engage smartgun-right); fire right
4th pass: fire right; (free act engage smartgun-left); fire left
you get the idea from here.....
 
Yes, after 6 shots with each hand they would both need to be reloaded, but it's more fun this way. That's why I have 10 speed loaders.

 KV supposes that you have to "disconnect" the smartgun from one gun to switch to the other as a free action. I'm hoping that he's wrong (my idea is MUCH cooler that way), but I don't know. Does anybody have any solid info? Pretty please...

There are no strength requirements for heavy weapons, but the GM can always say a scrawny nerd has no chance of firing and controlling a heavy machine gun.  Remember that uncompensated recoil on heavy weapons is doubled.

2 RUGERS
You are not required to have the Ambidexterity quality, that only negates the -2 negative modifier for shooting with your off-hand.  It helps however since you will be using your off-hand.

Attacker Using a Second Firear m
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each
hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires
that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two
separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest
dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks
also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights.
Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one
weapon also apply to the other weapon.

So in short, split your dice pool, no Smartlink at all, and -2 for your off-hand unless you have Ambidexterity.  It's example time!

Example character:
Galbraith 1.0
Relative info:
Agility: 5 (7)
Pistols: 6 (Semi-Automatics)
Qualities: Ambidextrous
Cyber: Smartlink, Muscle Replacement (2) (factored into Agility)
Pistols pool: 13 (15 for semi-autos) +2 for Smartlink

Let's say for this remake you specialized in the Rugers or revolvers, making your pool 15 +2 with smartlink.

Scenario:
Target bad guy at 5 meters (Body 3, reaction 3, armor jacket 8/6)
Shooting both guns at him
Modifiers:
Range: 0
Smartlink: 0 (instead of +2)
Ambidextrous: 0 (instead of -2)
Aimed Shot: +1 (Simple Action)

Total pool: 16

Note that you can fire both revolvers as a single simple action, so I used the second simple action available to aim for a +1.

Split pool for shooting: 8 & 8

Not bad, but not awesome.  For this scenario let's assume 25% success rate on all rolls and no glitches.  That means you'll hit with both guns, with 2 hits each. Bad guy with reaction 3 would get 1 hit on each attack, reducing your net hits to 1 each gun.  If he had any skill in dodge or gymnastics for a Full Defense action you would miss.

So, 1 net hit on each gun vs Bad guy's Body 3 plus ballistic armor 8.  Your guns have AP -2, reducing armor to 6, for a total soak pool of 9.  Assumed success rate means 2 hits.  Ruger's 6P + 1 net hit means 7P damage, reduced by 2, for a total of 5 physical twice!

If only firing one gun your pool is 17 +1 for aiming.  However if you run the numbers you'll get 3 net hits for 9P, -2 for 7P.  So in that extremely simple scenario (and probably best case scenario) firing 2 guns is better than 1.  But keep in mind that you drastically reduce your dice pools to the point that anyone with a decent reaction or dodge is much better off defending vs your two guns rather than 1 gun.

[kv]

Ooh, what Ingo said. That's why I said to ask the experts.

I had forgotten about no smartlink for dual-wielding.

Ingo, I think he meant firing the two guns, each with one simple action, rather than the two-guns at once. That way, he doesn't have to split his dice pool (or does he still?). If you say he does still, I may just love you forever.

  - Logain

[kv]

Also, Merry Christmas, Happy Chanakkah, Merry Harvest Festival (also known as Kwanza), and a very happy winter solstice from my corner of the world, too.

We'll give everyone the holidays off, and then start back in before the New Year.

- Logain

[Bullet Sponge]

I'm talking about firing each weapon independantly. Fire 1 pistol alone during each simple action. Holding 2 pistols, but only firing 1 at a time. Trying to NOT split my dice pool. By alternating pistols the intent is to make the very limited ammo last a little longer and hoping (probably foolishly, but still hoping) to be able to still use the smartlink.

[Ingo Monk]

Ooh, what Ingo said. That's why I said to ask the experts.

I had forgotten about no smartlink for dual-wielding.

Ingo, I think he meant firing the two guns, each with one simple action, rather than the two-guns at once. That way, he doesn't have to split his dice pool (or does he still?). If you say he does still, I may just love you forever.

  - Logain

I'm talking about firing each weapon independantly. Fire 1 pistol alone during each simple action. Holding 2 pistols, but only firing 1 at a time. Trying to NOT split my dice pool. By alternating pistols the intent is to make the very limited ammo last a little longer and hoping (probably foolishly, but still hoping) to be able to still use the smartlink.

Answers below, bolded emphasis added.

Quick Draw
...
Two weapons may
be quick-drawn and fired simultaneously, but this raises the threshold on the Pistols + Reaction
Test to 4 (see Attacker Using a Second Firearm, p. 150). A separate Pistols + Reaction (4) Test is
required for each pistol (threshold 3 if they are held in quick-draw holsters).

Fire Weapon
...
If a character has one weapon in each hand, he may fire once with
each weapon by expending one Simple Action (see Attacker Using a Second Firearm, p. 150). Note
that single-shot weapons may be fired only once per Action Phase.
...

In short, the answer is: "Yes, he can fire each gun one at a time per action phase utilizing his entire dice pool for each shot."  I can find no mention about using two guns simultaneously with smartlinks in SR4A, so KV that is your call.  In theory it would make sense that a smartgun system could link up to more than one smartgun at a time, and it's not too far-fetched to say that more than one can be active simultaneously.  As a modern example of optical tracking, the Kinect for Xbox 360 can track up to 4 people simultaneously.  It does so by locating their hands, then building a wire frame skeleton linked to those hands.  The next version of Kinect will supposedly be able to track individual finger movement.  Anyway, I would imagine the smartgun user would see 2 crosshairs and 2 sets of data in their vision.  On that note remember that the user will need some kind of image link for smartlink to work, either image link cyberware, an image link built into cyber eyes, or an image link added to some kind of optical device (glasses, goggles, contacts, etc.).  They probably added that bit about "no smartlink if firing both guns simultaneously" to balance combat a little bit and remove what would essentially be +4 to the attack. 

To balance it out as a GM you could say: 1) "he can't run 2 simultaneously as it's too much data for his brain to process," 2) "he must run a higher-end model of the smartgun system, costing more for the guns and the cyber with additional essence cost," 3) or just say "no" hahaha.  I can't say there are actually rules for this or not since there seem to be none present in SR4A and I don't have the newer gun books.

To balance in SR any tangible benefit the character has needs some kind of cost or some kind of drawback.  Smartlinks that are not cybernetic can be dropped or otherwise removed from the character, so to counter that drawback the smartlink can be installed as cyberware with an added cost (essence). 

Also, keep this in mind:

Multiple Targets
If a character attacks multiple targets within a single Action Phase, he
takes a –2 dice pool modifier per additional target. For example, if a
character engages two targets with burst fire, he receives a –2 modifier
for the second target.

Not so bad in this situation, but a bit crazy if you're a machine gun toting crazy spray and pray kinda guy trying to mow down 5 guys in one action phase.

In closing:
He's going for style, which is cool I think.  If it becomes too powerful just up the ante and make baddies harder or don't pull punches when they're attacking him.  Remember that revolvers cannot be silenced and that bad guy organizations can do research too.  They'll end up knowing who's in a runner team and they'll end up knowing what each member does.  They'll eventually figure out he's a mean fragger and try to take him out first.  But in the end if he becomes too much to handle, just have a sniper take him out.  I have no qualms killing off characters that are breaking the game for the rest of the players.  That just means that player is not a team player and is looking for personal glory.  I once made a character that dual wielded pistols and had insane dice pools.  After the second game session I got bored and felt bad, I killed guys too quickly and the rest of the team didn't get to do enough in combat.  So, I made a new guy and started in again!

[Ruski]

If he installed two complete smartlink systems (double newyen and essence costs) he *should be able to bounce back and forth from gun to gun in theory. May end up reducing the effectiveness though. Only get one extra die out of it. Switching hands mid action isn't much different than firing one gun twice, but recoil still stacks and second target modifiers, off-hand modifiers, all still apply.
Mostly: its a cool idea that would look awesome in a movie; but if you add the cost of a level 8 edge into doubling cyberware costs, combined with no real reduction in target numbers... you are looking at an expensive way to make a mediocre char.
If you are really in love with the idea run with it... if you want to fire a gun that does 6 boxes of damage twice in a round... there are much easier ways to make that happen.

[Ingo Monk]

If he installed two complete smartlink systems (double newyen and essence costs) he *should be able to bounce back and forth from gun to gun in theory. May end up reducing the effectiveness though. Only get one extra die out of it. Switching hands mid action isn't much different than firing one gun twice, but recoil still stacks and second target modifiers, off-hand modifiers, all still apply.
Mostly: its a cool idea that would look awesome in a movie; but if you add the cost of a level 8 edge into doubling cyberware costs, combined with no real reduction in target numbers... you are looking at an expensive way to make a mediocre char.
If you are really in love with the idea run with it... if you want to fire a gun that does 6 boxes of damage twice in a round... there are much easier ways to make that happen.

That's the thing, I don't think there would be any recoil.  See this quote, emphasis added.

Recoil
Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from
an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semiautomatic
weapons that fire a second shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier
for the second shot only.
...
Characters can only counter a recoil modifier with recoil compensation
or gyro stabilization (see Firearm Accessories, p. 322).
...

So in essence, since he'd be firing a single shot only capable gun, there would be no recoil since he's not firing it again in that action phase.  I interpret recoil for semi-auto guns as the fact that you have to retrain your gun on your target after the gun has kicked back.  This wouldn't affect your off-hand as much if you're practiced in it.

I agree with you about the double smartlink systems, that's a simple way of forcing some drawback in this situation. 

[bull30548]

Sorry if I am coming off as some sort of nay sayer or devil's advocate here.

It seems to me we may be making the smartgun and smartlink system smarter than they are.  Also one of the problems with the smartgun/link system is that if he doesn't have them plugged directly in that means wireless and that means he can be hacked.  It's harder than hell but I did pull it with a hacker I played once and did a simple command switch of friends to foes and foes to friends which prevented the guy from shooting at us at all.

Now onto the quote on Recoil note that it says action phase not initiative pass.  This means that he would get a -1 if he fires the same gun in the same initiative pass.  Bullet Sponge may have already made this point but also look at page 147 of SR4A where it states: Note that single-shot weapons may be fired only once per Action Phase.  Likewise, only one long burst may be fired in each Action Phase.  So if he has more than one initiative pass per action phase even with two SS pistols he only firing two rounds (one from each pistol).  I believe this is where the movie magic type stuff hits because you know big heavy revolvers kick like mules and it takes a second or two to line back up just from that.  I mean if you read the descriptor on the Super Warhawk it's a Dirty Harry quote. 

If you were doing a mage (like I am and have played in the pass) and didn't have any initiative passes this is a great gun.  If enemies know your a mage they going to worry more about getting mana blasted than that hand cannon.  If they don't your not much of a threat because all you got is that hand cannon.  The guys around you with the smgs are going to be the targets.

So onto other things Bullet Sponge you decide on a Machine Gun yet?  If you want to go light I would recommend one of those variable gun types one that you could have just be a carbine (smg) then have the parts concealed in your vehicle to make it into the lmg model.  Also don't forget those Battle Rifles sound sweet and may be easier to carry around.  Maybe I will have my troll carry one just to stick with the noob stereotype always carry the biggest unique weapon you can.  Mainly cause I forgot about them lol.